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Today is a holiday in my state in Germany and being absent minded I realized too late. If I had a car, I could just hope in and drive somewhere in the forest an

Today is a holiday in my state in Germany and being absent minded I realized too late. If I had a car, I could just hope in and drive somewhere in the forest and have a small hike. To do the same with public transport, one needs to plan ahead and time everything perfectly. For example, the bus to take you back after the end of the hiking trip is only at the bus stop every hour, and only up till 5pm. And owning a car does not mean you have to drive it to work everyday. I will probably buy a car in the near future, but I'll probably still commute with public transport. At least as long as I still live in a city. EDIT: If everyone ditched their cars, the housing crisis that is currently happening in literally every city in the developed world, will only get much worse.

28304283409234 3y ago
Or do what I do: rent a car. Not owning a car does not mean never driving one.
- dauertewigkeit 3y ago
  Renting a car has exactly the same drawback as public transport. You have to plan ahead each time, and there are the added logistics of picking up and dropping the car after use.
moffkalast 3y ago
That's true of course, but renting an EV for like 20€ a day is way waaaay cheaper than buying/maintaining/registering a car if you only need it for occasional trips, or even taking a cab for shorter journeys. Like I don't buy an airplane if I'm gonna take 3 flights per year.
- dauertewigkeit 3y ago
  It is cheaper, not "waaay" cheaper, but it comes at the same cost of having to plan ahead, which really bothers me, because I am quite sporadic in how I plan my day.
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    Well the price difference obviously depends on the number of days you actually need a car, but afaik it doesn't take too much planning ahead to rent through a car sharing app these days. Anyway I asked GPT 4 with browsing to make a ballpark calculation for Germany to see roughly when it becomes more cost effective: Based on the average costs obtained: The average price of a new car in Germany is €37,790 1 . The average depreciation of a new car in Germany after 36 months is 41.1% 2 . The average cost of car insurance in Germany is around €250 per year 3 . The average cost of vehicle tax in Germany is around €100 per year 4 . The average cost of a car inspection in Germany is €120 every 2 years 4 . The average cost of a parking permit in Germany (considering big cities) is €20.40 valid for 2 years 4 . The average cost of a rental car in Germany is $55 per day, $307 per week ($44 per day), and $1,318 per month ($44 per day) 5 . To make a comparison, we need to consider the cost of owning a car for a year versus renting a car for a number of days in a year. The cost of owning a car per year would be: Depreciation: €37,790 * 41.1% / 3 years = €5,168.59 per year Insurance: €250 per year Vehicle tax: €100 per year Inspection: €120 / 2 years = €60 per year Parking permit: €20.40 / 2 years = €10.20 per year Adding up these costs gives a total cost of ownership of approximately €5,589.79 per year. We also need to consider that while the daily rental cost is $55, the weekly and monthly rates are cheaper per day, at $44. To make a comparison, let's use the weekly rate, and assume it applies for any number of days. Assuming an exchange rate of 1.12 USD/EUR (as of my training data cut-off in September 2021), the cost of renting a car for a day would be $44 * 1.12 = €49.28. Therefore, the break-even point in days of car usage per year would be: €5,589.79 / €49.28 = approximately 113 days So if you plan to use a car for more than 113 days in a year, it would be cheaper to buy a car instead of renting, based on these average costs. I mean 100 days? That's like going for a trip almost every third day of the year. Absolute madness to buy a car if you're not using it to drive to work every day if this is correct. I would presume that the average price is a bit skewed with high end cars moving it away from the median, but the car sharing prices I see are also more like 20-35€ per day, so that probably balances out. Full convo with references: https://chat.openai.com/share/4d6868a2-2862-465d-be72-eef3bba2f8f5 https://chat.openai.com/share/4d6868a2-2862-465d-be72-eef3bb...
TrueGeek 3y ago
> EDIT: If everyone ditched their cars, the housing crisis that is currently happening in literally every city in the developed world, will only get much worse. Or more funding will go towards public transportation. There will be more room left from parking for new housing. Less money will be spent on infrastructure maintenance. City planners can work on walkable cities instead of drivable cities. Cities will be quieter and safer.
zemvpferreira 3y ago
At the risk of repeating myself in every thread about urbanism, in asian megacities like Tokyo nature is a train ride away, at any time, any day. In Europe we've just been bad about planning and building infrastructure.
- ta988 3y ago
  The US is even worse. It was entirely planned for people with cars. Some stores you don't even have a way to get to go in by walking, you have to go on the road at some point.
- nec4b 3y ago
  >> in asian megacities like Tokyo nature is a train ride away Only if you consider nature to be like a city park crowded with people. Real nature doesn't start at train stations.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    The Tokyo area has fabulous public transit that will take you halfway up a mountain. It's usually a bus, though. We went mountain hiking every second weekend or so when I lived there. We always took transit.
    - nec4b 3y ago
      That's nice, but you still only saw a small bit around that particular mountain of of thousands that exist in japan, and you probably weren't exactly alone if there is a bus route from the city to there. It is not what I image when somebody says nature.
      - bryanlarsen 3y ago
        We typically went 100 - 200km on those bus routes, so we covered a few hundred square kilometres. Sure the start & end of those routes was more populated, but they drove through lots of unpopulated areas. Being mountainous Japan has lots of those. We often went without seeing a single person once we got off the bus until we got to our destination (usually an onsen).
2-718-281-828 3y ago
judging from your username this seems to be a problem concerning you significantly. as a car owner who got a car _specifically_ for that reason i can tell you that you don't want to visit a german forest on a holiday. if you happen to have a big forest in an acceptable driving distance you might want to take a chance but there will be people all over the place. plus loud motorcycles you hear from 2km distance and millionaires enjoying a flight with a cessna.

28304283409234 3y ago

Or do what I do: rent a car. Not owning a car does not mean never driving one.

dauertewigkeit 3y ago
Renting a car has exactly the same drawback as public transport. You have to plan ahead each time, and there are the added logistics of picking up and dropping the car after use.

moffkalast 3y ago

That's true of course, but renting an EV for like 20€ a day is way waaaay cheaper than buying/maintaining/registering a car if you only need it for occasional trips, or even taking a cab for shorter journeys. Like I don't buy an airplane if I'm gonna take 3 flights per year.

dauertewigkeit 3y ago
It is cheaper, not "waaay" cheaper, but it comes at the same cost of having to plan ahead, which really bothers me, because I am quite sporadic in how I plan my day.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  Well the price difference obviously depends on the number of days you actually need a car, but afaik it doesn't take too much planning ahead to rent through a car sharing app these days. Anyway I asked GPT 4 with browsing to make a ballpark calculation for Germany to see roughly when it becomes more cost effective: Based on the average costs obtained: The average price of a new car in Germany is €37,790 1 . The average depreciation of a new car in Germany after 36 months is 41.1% 2 . The average cost of car insurance in Germany is around €250 per year 3 . The average cost of vehicle tax in Germany is around €100 per year 4 . The average cost of a car inspection in Germany is €120 every 2 years 4 . The average cost of a parking permit in Germany (considering big cities) is €20.40 valid for 2 years 4 . The average cost of a rental car in Germany is $55 per day, $307 per week ($44 per day), and $1,318 per month ($44 per day) 5 . To make a comparison, we need to consider the cost of owning a car for a year versus renting a car for a number of days in a year. The cost of owning a car per year would be: Depreciation: €37,790 * 41.1% / 3 years = €5,168.59 per year Insurance: €250 per year Vehicle tax: €100 per year Inspection: €120 / 2 years = €60 per year Parking permit: €20.40 / 2 years = €10.20 per year Adding up these costs gives a total cost of ownership of approximately €5,589.79 per year. We also need to consider that while the daily rental cost is $55, the weekly and monthly rates are cheaper per day, at $44. To make a comparison, let's use the weekly rate, and assume it applies for any number of days. Assuming an exchange rate of 1.12 USD/EUR (as of my training data cut-off in September 2021), the cost of renting a car for a day would be $44 * 1.12 = €49.28. Therefore, the break-even point in days of car usage per year would be: €5,589.79 / €49.28 = approximately 113 days So if you plan to use a car for more than 113 days in a year, it would be cheaper to buy a car instead of renting, based on these average costs. I mean 100 days? That's like going for a trip almost every third day of the year. Absolute madness to buy a car if you're not using it to drive to work every day if this is correct. I would presume that the average price is a bit skewed with high end cars moving it away from the median, but the car sharing prices I see are also more like 20-35€ per day, so that probably balances out. Full convo with references: https://chat.openai.com/share/4d6868a2-2862-465d-be72-eef3bba2f8f5 https://chat.openai.com/share/4d6868a2-2862-465d-be72-eef3bb...

TrueGeek 3y ago

> EDIT: If everyone ditched their cars, the housing crisis that is currently happening in literally every city in the developed world, will only get much worse. Or more funding will go towards public transportation. There will be more room left from parking for new housing. Less money will be spent on infrastructure maintenance. City planners can work on walkable cities instead of drivable cities. Cities will be quieter and safer.

zemvpferreira 3y ago

At the risk of repeating myself in every thread about urbanism, in asian megacities like Tokyo nature is a train ride away, at any time, any day. In Europe we've just been bad about planning and building infrastructure.

ta988 3y ago
The US is even worse. It was entirely planned for people with cars. Some stores you don't even have a way to get to go in by walking, you have to go on the road at some point.
nec4b 3y ago
>> in asian megacities like Tokyo nature is a train ride away Only if you consider nature to be like a city park crowded with people. Real nature doesn't start at train stations.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  The Tokyo area has fabulous public transit that will take you halfway up a mountain. It's usually a bus, though. We went mountain hiking every second weekend or so when I lived there. We always took transit.
  - nec4b 3y ago
    That's nice, but you still only saw a small bit around that particular mountain of of thousands that exist in japan, and you probably weren't exactly alone if there is a bus route from the city to there. It is not what I image when somebody says nature.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      We typically went 100 - 200km on those bus routes, so we covered a few hundred square kilometres. Sure the start & end of those routes was more populated, but they drove through lots of unpopulated areas. Being mountainous Japan has lots of those. We often went without seeing a single person once we got off the bus until we got to our destination (usually an onsen).

2-718-281-828 3y ago

judging from your username this seems to be a problem concerning you significantly. as a car owner who got a car _specifically_ for that reason i can tell you that you don't want to visit a german forest on a holiday. if you happen to have a big forest in an acceptable driving distance you might want to take a chance but there will be people all over the place. plus loud motorcycles you hear from 2km distance and millionaires enjoying a flight with a cessna.