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People seem to be confusing clinical with academic psychology. While the former uses a lot of the more well-established concepts(like conditioning) from the lat

People seem to be confusing clinical with academic psychology. While the former uses a lot of the more well-established concepts(like conditioning) from the latter, it's very much its own discipline, and it actually has much more rigorous research methods than academic psychology because treatments are subject to regulatory approval. I can speak from a lot of experience when I say I would trust a clinical psychologist over a psychiatrist any day of the week. Psychiatrists are just doctors who learn to prescribe medication based on a simple set of rules and psychometry. There are psychiatrists who take their field very seriously, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

willcipriano 3y ago
Here's the thing. There is a decent body of evidence for chiropractic and therapeutic touch if I'm honest. People find relief from pain by going to a chiropractor, but they also find similar results getting a massage. It's basically impossible to separate the benefits of talk (social interaction, validation, etc) from the talk therapy. Lots of people whould probably be served just as well if they had someone much less trained, or not even trained at all to talk to in a similar manner. Furthermore as the social bonds disintegrate studies suggest that individuals have less friends and less interpersonal interaction generally (social media use excluded) at the same time the need for psychologists has increased. In some demographics over half the members have been diagnosed with a mental illness. How can we be sure that all of the sudden lots of people have become mentally ill vs lots of people need someone to listen to them?
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  I generally agree with your point about the benefit of talking. I think there are many cases where someone would probably benefit as much from just talking to a close friend. But there are also many cases when a therapist can provide objectivity, discretion, insight and experience that friends just can't match. This goes especially for actually severe mental disorder, because the thing there is, those patients have things going on in their head that most people can't relate to or understand(like irrational fears for instance). Psychologists however have a lot of experience talking with these people, reading and interpreting abnormal body language. And they know the sort of things you definitely don't want to say to a patient. As for your point about social media, my personal view is that you're mostly right except I do think real mental illness is increasing, because loneliness is such a strong cause of depression especially, but also social phobia. Throughout my childhood most of my interactions with people outside my family consisted or bullying by other kids and neglect by teachers. Because of this, it's deeply instilled in me that in any social interaction people are catalogueing my every mistake or negative attribute, or just ignoring me. No amount of conversation with other people(or medication btw) has helped me overcome this, but the only progress I have made was in therapy. What I really needed was help to understand why my brain works this way, and how I can be more aware of my own irrational thinking. This has helped me to obsess a lot less about social situations. Though I still have a deep mistrust of people at my core, I've at least been able to let some people in and learn to trust them. And accept that they really do like me for who I am. While a bit rambling, I hope that provides some context on what a good therapist can do compared to speaking to friends and loved ones.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    I'm not saying you shouldn't go to one on a personal level. If it helps you or improves your life it doesn't matter if scientific or not, it isn't anyone's business. I'm speaking more about it from a population level. I think we could probably come up with ways to more cheaply (read: increase access) to help people with moderate mental illness (that I suspect in some cases may be the brain working correctly and accurately finding it's environment to be unpleasant and lonely). For young men without strong male influences in particular I think a kind person in some sort of big brother program is probably worth a team of psychological professionals in many cases.
    - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
      Sounds like somebody should design a study and test it.
      - willcipriano 3y ago
        I don't think you can blind it properly. Patients will probably report the care as more effective from therapists due to social conditioning and placebo effect. I recall a study where doctors in white coats were rated more effective than without by patients.
    - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
      I definitely agree that we can do more to help moderate mental illness, and that a lot of things can be more communal than clinical. That's all great. But we need to recognise that actually, there are people who can't be helped this way, who need more than just any talk at all, and that clinical psychologists have a lot of useful expertise on how to help these people, that can't simply be written off as unscientific or just a friendly conversation. There's a lot more to it than that.

willcipriano 3y ago

Here's the thing. There is a decent body of evidence for chiropractic and therapeutic touch if I'm honest. People find relief from pain by going to a chiropractor, but they also find similar results getting a massage. It's basically impossible to separate the benefits of talk (social interaction, validation, etc) from the talk therapy. Lots of people whould probably be served just as well if they had someone much less trained, or not even trained at all to talk to in a similar manner. Furthermore as the social bonds disintegrate studies suggest that individuals have less friends and less interpersonal interaction generally (social media use excluded) at the same time the need for psychologists has increased. In some demographics over half the members have been diagnosed with a mental illness. How can we be sure that all of the sudden lots of people have become mentally ill vs lots of people need someone to listen to them?

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
I generally agree with your point about the benefit of talking. I think there are many cases where someone would probably benefit as much from just talking to a close friend. But there are also many cases when a therapist can provide objectivity, discretion, insight and experience that friends just can't match. This goes especially for actually severe mental disorder, because the thing there is, those patients have things going on in their head that most people can't relate to or understand(like irrational fears for instance). Psychologists however have a lot of experience talking with these people, reading and interpreting abnormal body language. And they know the sort of things you definitely don't want to say to a patient. As for your point about social media, my personal view is that you're mostly right except I do think real mental illness is increasing, because loneliness is such a strong cause of depression especially, but also social phobia. Throughout my childhood most of my interactions with people outside my family consisted or bullying by other kids and neglect by teachers. Because of this, it's deeply instilled in me that in any social interaction people are catalogueing my every mistake or negative attribute, or just ignoring me. No amount of conversation with other people(or medication btw) has helped me overcome this, but the only progress I have made was in therapy. What I really needed was help to understand why my brain works this way, and how I can be more aware of my own irrational thinking. This has helped me to obsess a lot less about social situations. Though I still have a deep mistrust of people at my core, I've at least been able to let some people in and learn to trust them. And accept that they really do like me for who I am. While a bit rambling, I hope that provides some context on what a good therapist can do compared to speaking to friends and loved ones.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  I'm not saying you shouldn't go to one on a personal level. If it helps you or improves your life it doesn't matter if scientific or not, it isn't anyone's business. I'm speaking more about it from a population level. I think we could probably come up with ways to more cheaply (read: increase access) to help people with moderate mental illness (that I suspect in some cases may be the brain working correctly and accurately finding it's environment to be unpleasant and lonely). For young men without strong male influences in particular I think a kind person in some sort of big brother program is probably worth a team of psychological professionals in many cases.
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    Sounds like somebody should design a study and test it.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      I don't think you can blind it properly. Patients will probably report the care as more effective from therapists due to social conditioning and placebo effect. I recall a study where doctors in white coats were rated more effective than without by patients.
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    I definitely agree that we can do more to help moderate mental illness, and that a lot of things can be more communal than clinical. That's all great. But we need to recognise that actually, there are people who can't be helped this way, who need more than just any talk at all, and that clinical psychologists have a lot of useful expertise on how to help these people, that can't simply be written off as unscientific or just a friendly conversation. There's a lot more to it than that.