3 ms·

I wish there was a succinct way to communicate this. Lots of people I know revere psychologists' word as end-all be all, beyond doubt. To question it makes them

by boppo1 3y ago

I wish there was a succinct way to communicate this. Lots of people I know revere psychologists' word as end-all be all, beyond doubt. To question it makes them think I'm questioning physics. There are good ideas in the field, to be sure. But on the other hand...

willcipriano 3y ago
For me the scariest part is its the only speciality that we allow to imprison people (involuntary holds) and they can keep people out of prison (not fit to stand trial). They also often influence public policy. That's a lot of power for people who can't do a double blind study most of the time.
- p-e-w 3y ago
  It's even worse than that: Some jurisdictions (including California IIRC) allow involuntary psychiatric holds based on the assessment of people (like law enforcement officers) who have no psychological qualifications whatsoever. This is without a doubt one of the worst and most normalized human rights violations happening in the world today, and the scale and impact of it is hard to imagine.
  - throwaway426079 3y ago
    I have seen police arrest people under section 136 of the UK's Mental Health Act in circumstances where no expertise is needed to see that the person is a danger to themselves or others. The police then take that person to a place of safety, usually a hospital.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
People seem to be confusing clinical with academic psychology. While the former uses a lot of the more well-established concepts(like conditioning) from the latter, it's very much its own discipline, and it actually has much more rigorous research methods than academic psychology because treatments are subject to regulatory approval. I can speak from a lot of experience when I say I would trust a clinical psychologist over a psychiatrist any day of the week. Psychiatrists are just doctors who learn to prescribe medication based on a simple set of rules and psychometry. There are psychiatrists who take their field very seriously, but that's the exception rather than the rule.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  Here's the thing. There is a decent body of evidence for chiropractic and therapeutic touch if I'm honest. People find relief from pain by going to a chiropractor, but they also find similar results getting a massage. It's basically impossible to separate the benefits of talk (social interaction, validation, etc) from the talk therapy. Lots of people whould probably be served just as well if they had someone much less trained, or not even trained at all to talk to in a similar manner. Furthermore as the social bonds disintegrate studies suggest that individuals have less friends and less interpersonal interaction generally (social media use excluded) at the same time the need for psychologists has increased. In some demographics over half the members have been diagnosed with a mental illness. How can we be sure that all of the sudden lots of people have become mentally ill vs lots of people need someone to listen to them?
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    I generally agree with your point about the benefit of talking. I think there are many cases where someone would probably benefit as much from just talking to a close friend. But there are also many cases when a therapist can provide objectivity, discretion, insight and experience that friends just can't match. This goes especially for actually severe mental disorder, because the thing there is, those patients have things going on in their head that most people can't relate to or understand(like irrational fears for instance). Psychologists however have a lot of experience talking with these people, reading and interpreting abnormal body language. And they know the sort of things you definitely don't want to say to a patient. As for your point about social media, my personal view is that you're mostly right except I do think real mental illness is increasing, because loneliness is such a strong cause of depression especially, but also social phobia. Throughout my childhood most of my interactions with people outside my family consisted or bullying by other kids and neglect by teachers. Because of this, it's deeply instilled in me that in any social interaction people are catalogueing my every mistake or negative attribute, or just ignoring me. No amount of conversation with other people(or medication btw) has helped me overcome this, but the only progress I have made was in therapy. What I really needed was help to understand why my brain works this way, and how I can be more aware of my own irrational thinking. This has helped me to obsess a lot less about social situations. Though I still have a deep mistrust of people at my core, I've at least been able to let some people in and learn to trust them. And accept that they really do like me for who I am. While a bit rambling, I hope that provides some context on what a good therapist can do compared to speaking to friends and loved ones.

by boppo1 3y ago

willcipriano 3y ago

For me the scariest part is its the only speciality that we allow to imprison people (involuntary holds) and they can keep people out of prison (not fit to stand trial). They also often influence public policy. That's a lot of power for people who can't do a double blind study most of the time.

p-e-w 3y ago
It's even worse than that: Some jurisdictions (including California IIRC) allow involuntary psychiatric holds based on the assessment of people (like law enforcement officers) who have no psychological qualifications whatsoever. This is without a doubt one of the worst and most normalized human rights violations happening in the world today, and the scale and impact of it is hard to imagine.
- throwaway426079 3y ago
  I have seen police arrest people under section 136 of the UK's Mental Health Act in circumstances where no expertise is needed to see that the person is a danger to themselves or others. The police then take that person to a place of safety, usually a hospital.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago

People seem to be confusing clinical with academic psychology. While the former uses a lot of the more well-established concepts(like conditioning) from the latter, it's very much its own discipline, and it actually has much more rigorous research methods than academic psychology because treatments are subject to regulatory approval. I can speak from a lot of experience when I say I would trust a clinical psychologist over a psychiatrist any day of the week. Psychiatrists are just doctors who learn to prescribe medication based on a simple set of rules and psychometry. There are psychiatrists who take their field very seriously, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

willcipriano 3y ago
Here's the thing. There is a decent body of evidence for chiropractic and therapeutic touch if I'm honest. People find relief from pain by going to a chiropractor, but they also find similar results getting a massage. It's basically impossible to separate the benefits of talk (social interaction, validation, etc) from the talk therapy. Lots of people whould probably be served just as well if they had someone much less trained, or not even trained at all to talk to in a similar manner. Furthermore as the social bonds disintegrate studies suggest that individuals have less friends and less interpersonal interaction generally (social media use excluded) at the same time the need for psychologists has increased. In some demographics over half the members have been diagnosed with a mental illness. How can we be sure that all of the sudden lots of people have become mentally ill vs lots of people need someone to listen to them?
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  I generally agree with your point about the benefit of talking. I think there are many cases where someone would probably benefit as much from just talking to a close friend. But there are also many cases when a therapist can provide objectivity, discretion, insight and experience that friends just can't match. This goes especially for actually severe mental disorder, because the thing there is, those patients have things going on in their head that most people can't relate to or understand(like irrational fears for instance). Psychologists however have a lot of experience talking with these people, reading and interpreting abnormal body language. And they know the sort of things you definitely don't want to say to a patient. As for your point about social media, my personal view is that you're mostly right except I do think real mental illness is increasing, because loneliness is such a strong cause of depression especially, but also social phobia. Throughout my childhood most of my interactions with people outside my family consisted or bullying by other kids and neglect by teachers. Because of this, it's deeply instilled in me that in any social interaction people are catalogueing my every mistake or negative attribute, or just ignoring me. No amount of conversation with other people(or medication btw) has helped me overcome this, but the only progress I have made was in therapy. What I really needed was help to understand why my brain works this way, and how I can be more aware of my own irrational thinking. This has helped me to obsess a lot less about social situations. Though I still have a deep mistrust of people at my core, I've at least been able to let some people in and learn to trust them. And accept that they really do like me for who I am. While a bit rambling, I hope that provides some context on what a good therapist can do compared to speaking to friends and loved ones.