4 ms·

GNS Theory

23 points by luu 3y ago

kkylin 3y ago
I clicked on it thinking it was about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelfand%E2%80%93Naimark%E2%80%93Segal_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelfand%E2%80%93Naimark%E2%80%... Oh well, still interesting.
throwaway81523 3y ago
GNS = Gameism, Narrativism, Simulationism. "GNS theory is an informal field of study developed by Ron Edwards which attempts to create a unified theory of how role-playing games work. Focused on player behavior, in GNS theory participants in role-playing games organize their interactions around three categories of engagement: Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation. " There, now you know.
- rektide 3y ago
  > The theory focuses on player interaction rather than statistics, encompassing game design beyond role-playing games. Analysis centers on how player behavior fits the above parameters of engagement and how these preferences shape the content and direction of a game. Let's do pong. I think it's 0.7 (out of 1) game, 0.4 simulation, 0.2 narrative.
BryantD 3y ago
This isn’t good sociological theory, because it’s based on one man’s observations rather than actual research. You can see this in the evolution from the threefold model —- it’s just “my experiences are different, therefore.” That said it was important to say system does matter. Lots of fruitful discussion came out of these models. They’re just not particularly rigorous. It’s also worth noting that the Wikipedia article is incorrect. Ron didn’t intend to say “players have one of three mutually-exclusive perspectives,” although given that the original essay said “I’m a hard-core Narrativist” it’s easy to understand where people get that impression. But Ron has a series of posts about picking up Tunnels and Trolls and playing with the Gamist creative agenda: he thinks that games should have one clear perspective, and that you should play them with that perspective. But any given player may well enjoy one, two, or all three of the styles at different times.
- rektide 3y ago
  Theorycrafting models is one of the most raw genuine sparks people have. Most people I think have some unmessianic tendencies that keep them from verging into belief that theirs is the hardset model of it all. > GNS theory is an informal field of study Last, if anyone should be building weird little modal systems of activity it's also probably gamers.
  - BryantD 3y ago
    Most people do have those tendencies, indeed! Also, great last line.
barbariangrunge 3y ago
If you scrutinize this theory closely, you’ll find issues that are hard to resolve. But the really valuable insight that GNS added to the game design world was that there are more than one distinct type of experience that players and designers seek, and that by being more deliberate about which your game supports, you can have better experiences at the table
mcv 3y ago
I'm surprised to see this have a Wikipedia page. It's very niche. It's not very well founded, it's not very well defined, and there's plenty of problems with it. GNS theory definitely has some interesting points of view if you're thinking about game design, especially RPG design, but so do many, many other writings. And GNS redefines some terms that used to mean something slightly different in other discussions of RPG theory. My biggest problem with it is that Edwards claims that a game should focus on a single creative agenda (narrativist, gamist or simulationist) and that if you mix them, your game is dysfunctional, or something like that. I think the magic happens exactly when you find a good balance between these three concerns. They're all part of the RPG experience, and excluding one feels hollow to me. On the other hand, Vincent Baker comes from Ron Edwards' crowd at The Forge, and he's created several really great, innovative and popular RPGs, so if the GNS discussion has contributed to that, and that's absolutely valuable. And the Threefold Model[0] also has a Wikipedia page, so perhaps GNS should too. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threefold_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threefold_model

23 points by luu 3y ago

I clicked on it thinking it was about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelfand%E2%80%93Naimark%E2%80%93Segal_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelfand%E2%80%93Naimark%E2%80%... Oh well, still interesting.

throwaway81523 3y ago

GNS = Gameism, Narrativism, Simulationism. "GNS theory is an informal field of study developed by Ron Edwards which attempts to create a unified theory of how role-playing games work. Focused on player behavior, in GNS theory participants in role-playing games organize their interactions around three categories of engagement: Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation. " There, now you know.

rektide 3y ago
> The theory focuses on player interaction rather than statistics, encompassing game design beyond role-playing games. Analysis centers on how player behavior fits the above parameters of engagement and how these preferences shape the content and direction of a game. Let's do pong. I think it's 0.7 (out of 1) game, 0.4 simulation, 0.2 narrative.

BryantD 3y ago

This isn’t good sociological theory, because it’s based on one man’s observations rather than actual research. You can see this in the evolution from the threefold model —- it’s just “my experiences are different, therefore.” That said it was important to say system does matter. Lots of fruitful discussion came out of these models. They’re just not particularly rigorous. It’s also worth noting that the Wikipedia article is incorrect. Ron didn’t intend to say “players have one of three mutually-exclusive perspectives,” although given that the original essay said “I’m a hard-core Narrativist” it’s easy to understand where people get that impression. But Ron has a series of posts about picking up Tunnels and Trolls and playing with the Gamist creative agenda: he thinks that games should have one clear perspective, and that you should play them with that perspective. But any given player may well enjoy one, two, or all three of the styles at different times.

rektide 3y ago
Theorycrafting models is one of the most raw genuine sparks people have. Most people I think have some unmessianic tendencies that keep them from verging into belief that theirs is the hardset model of it all. > GNS theory is an informal field of study Last, if anyone should be building weird little modal systems of activity it's also probably gamers.
- BryantD 3y ago
  Most people do have those tendencies, indeed! Also, great last line.

barbariangrunge 3y ago

If you scrutinize this theory closely, you’ll find issues that are hard to resolve. But the really valuable insight that GNS added to the game design world was that there are more than one distinct type of experience that players and designers seek, and that by being more deliberate about which your game supports, you can have better experiences at the table

mcv 3y ago

I'm surprised to see this have a Wikipedia page. It's very niche. It's not very well founded, it's not very well defined, and there's plenty of problems with it. GNS theory definitely has some interesting points of view if you're thinking about game design, especially RPG design, but so do many, many other writings. And GNS redefines some terms that used to mean something slightly different in other discussions of RPG theory. My biggest problem with it is that Edwards claims that a game should focus on a single creative agenda (narrativist, gamist or simulationist) and that if you mix them, your game is dysfunctional, or something like that. I think the magic happens exactly when you find a good balance between these three concerns. They're all part of the RPG experience, and excluding one feels hollow to me. On the other hand, Vincent Baker comes from Ron Edwards' crowd at The Forge, and he's created several really great, innovative and popular RPGs, so if the GNS discussion has contributed to that, and that's absolutely valuable. And the Threefold Model[0] also has a Wikipedia page, so perhaps GNS should too. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threefold_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threefold_model