3 ms·

"modern day Hitler" Just curious, do you consider Bush, who started the Iraq war, to be a modern Hitler too?

by gdy 3y ago

hayst4ck 3y ago
No. But I do think he's a war criminal who irreparably damaged this country in countless ways and not subjecting himself to the ICC is a denial of everything America says it represents. Bush did more damage to America than Russia could ever hope to have done. I think he damaged America more than Trump. I think America's time in Iraq was not fundamentally genocidal and I don't remember America violently putting down opposition to the war at home so I think it falls short of "Hitler". While we did destroy the regime, I don't think we tried to destroy the notion of "iraq" or of being "iraqi." I could be convinced that we were worse than I think.
- gdy 3y ago
  I think you are using 'genocidal' frivolously here. 'I don't think we tried to destroy the notion of "iraq" or of being "iraqi."' That's not what genocide is.[0] Destroying 'notions' isn't a genocide. (That's without delving into argument of whether or not Putin's actions fit such description.) "In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." "I don't remember America violently putting down opposition to the war at home" I don't think there was much opposition[1] thanks to American free mass media[2] and ones who did protest occasionally got arrested. [3][4] Situation in Russia now is harsher, of course, but still. "I could be convinced that we were worse than I think." Don't really want to, my point is that Hitler has set a pretty high bar and both Bush and Putin failed to reach it. So far at least :( Look at the genocide in Rwanda, that's what qualifies as a good attempt. As a side note, do you remember Bush's Freudian slip when he said Iraq instead of Ukraine? The laugh in the audience is pretty disturbing [5]. I'd expect somber silence full of regret. [0] https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War#Scope_and_impact_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War#... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/world/from-the-editors-the-times-and-iraq.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/world/from-the-editors-th... [3] http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/17/sprj.irq.antiwar.protests/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/17/sprj.irq.antiw... [4] http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/01/19/sproj.irq.peace.protests/ http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/01/19/sproj.irq.peace.protest... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y23mTSviCZo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y23mTSviCZo
  - mcv 3y ago
    Why is he using it frivolously? He says Bush didn't do any of those things. > Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." Keep in mind: Putin does do these things. Ukrainian children are separated from their families and placed with Russian families to be raised as Russians. That's genocide. Adult Ukrainians have reportedly also been deported and made to live as Russians on the other side of Russia, separate from other Ukrainians. There's plenty of talk in the Russian media that all Ukrainians believe Ukrainian is a valid ethnicity should be killed. And we've seen the result of massacres. Sure, Putin doesn't do industrial scale murder of millions the way Hitler did, but as you point out, genocide is broader than that.
    - gdy 3y ago
      "Ukrainian children are separated from their families" Really? Would you leave an orphan in the war zone or move them to a safe place? Calling that a 'genocide' is cynical distortion and serves only Ukrainian propaganda. "Adult Ukrainians have reportedly also been deported " "Reportedly"? "and made to live as Russians" What does it even mean? Drinking vodka and playing balalaika? "There's plenty of talk in the Russian media that all Ukrainians believe Ukrainian is a valid ethnicity should be killed." "Plenty"? I don't know what you are talking about but just go to Ukrainian segment of Facebook, which allowed hate speech against Russians, and tons of genocidal fantasies.
      - mcv 3y ago
        > Would you leave an orphan in the war zone or move them to a safe place? No, I would reunite them with their families. Intentionally refusing to do so and leaving them with Russian families to raise as Russians is genocide. You don't get to whitewash that. This is not some people on Facebook; the UN has condemned it, the ICC issued arrest warrants, it's widely documented. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russia... for some sources. Same with the other stuff. Your rhetoric doesn't change the facts.

"modern day Hitler" Just curious, do you consider Bush, who started the Iraq war, to be a modern Hitler too?

by gdy 3y ago

"modern day Hitler" Just curious, do you consider Bush, who started the Iraq war, to be a modern Hitler too?

No. But I do think he's a war criminal who irreparably damaged this country in countless ways and not subjecting himself to the ICC is a denial of everything America says it represents. Bush did more damage to America than Russia could ever hope to have done. I think he damaged America more than Trump. I think America's time in Iraq was not fundamentally genocidal and I don't remember America violently putting down opposition to the war at home so I think it falls short of "Hitler". While we did destroy the regime, I don't think we tried to destroy the notion of "iraq" or of being "iraqi." I could be convinced that we were worse than I think.

gdy 3y ago
I think you are using 'genocidal' frivolously here. 'I don't think we tried to destroy the notion of "iraq" or of being "iraqi."' That's not what genocide is.[0] Destroying 'notions' isn't a genocide. (That's without delving into argument of whether or not Putin's actions fit such description.) "In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." "I don't remember America violently putting down opposition to the war at home" I don't think there was much opposition[1] thanks to American free mass media[2] and ones who did protest occasionally got arrested. [3][4] Situation in Russia now is harsher, of course, but still. "I could be convinced that we were worse than I think." Don't really want to, my point is that Hitler has set a pretty high bar and both Bush and Putin failed to reach it. So far at least :( Look at the genocide in Rwanda, that's what qualifies as a good attempt. As a side note, do you remember Bush's Freudian slip when he said Iraq instead of Ukraine? The laugh in the audience is pretty disturbing [5]. I'd expect somber silence full of regret. [0] https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War#Scope_and_impact_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War#... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/world/from-the-editors-the-times-and-iraq.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/world/from-the-editors-th... [3] http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/17/sprj.irq.antiwar.protests/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/17/sprj.irq.antiw... [4] http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/01/19/sproj.irq.peace.protests/ http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/01/19/sproj.irq.peace.protest... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y23mTSviCZo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y23mTSviCZo
- mcv 3y ago
  Why is he using it frivolously? He says Bush didn't do any of those things. > Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." Keep in mind: Putin does do these things. Ukrainian children are separated from their families and placed with Russian families to be raised as Russians. That's genocide. Adult Ukrainians have reportedly also been deported and made to live as Russians on the other side of Russia, separate from other Ukrainians. There's plenty of talk in the Russian media that all Ukrainians believe Ukrainian is a valid ethnicity should be killed. And we've seen the result of massacres. Sure, Putin doesn't do industrial scale murder of millions the way Hitler did, but as you point out, genocide is broader than that.
  - gdy 3y ago
    "Ukrainian children are separated from their families" Really? Would you leave an orphan in the war zone or move them to a safe place? Calling that a 'genocide' is cynical distortion and serves only Ukrainian propaganda. "Adult Ukrainians have reportedly also been deported " "Reportedly"? "and made to live as Russians" What does it even mean? Drinking vodka and playing balalaika? "There's plenty of talk in the Russian media that all Ukrainians believe Ukrainian is a valid ethnicity should be killed." "Plenty"? I don't know what you are talking about but just go to Ukrainian segment of Facebook, which allowed hate speech against Russians, and tons of genocidal fantasies.
    - mcv 3y ago
      > Would you leave an orphan in the war zone or move them to a safe place? No, I would reunite them with their families. Intentionally refusing to do so and leaving them with Russian families to raise as Russians is genocide. You don't get to whitewash that. This is not some people on Facebook; the UN has condemned it, the ICC issued arrest warrants, it's widely documented. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russia... for some sources. Same with the other stuff. Your rhetoric doesn't change the facts.