3 ms·

e2e encryption is one forced update away from being plain text.

by akomtu 3y ago

kccqzy 3y ago
I trust big tech companies more than I trust startups or smaller tech companies. I have faith that neither Apple nor Google would do that. This is a personal belief based on chatting with Apple and Google employees. You don't have to agree.
- pcthrowaway 3y ago
  Regardless of how much you trust them, the fact that they can force a decryption of these keys (and selectively, per-user, no less) means that you are not in custody of your own authentication identity. Add to that, they can be legally compelled to take such a measure (and I'm sure they will in due time). Compared to using, say, KeepassXC with a unique, secure password per vault. Now you can sync on iCloud or google drive, but neither Google nor Apple can decrypt the vault; the keepassXC maintainers presumably could make a malicious update (which you'd still have to accept, since the updates aren't forced on you), but that would also affect the security of everyone using KeepassXC (and potentially be much more harmful to the economy and society as a whole than the government is willing to accept in order to get intel on an individual person of interest)
  - n0zmer 3y ago
    KeepassXC has a ways to go still before I can trust it. I just attempted to use it again, after a few years, and syncing the DB across google drive randomly caused all of my entries to be erased. No recovery, nothing. just opened the DB one day and all of my saved notes and passwords went poof. It's a know bug, but the fact that it still exists really shows how much the devs care about making it a really rock solid alternative. I've never had this issue with Google passwords, 1password or any other provider.
    - pcthrowaway 3y ago
      Oh for sure, KeepassXC has some UI issues. And in this case, a glaring bug, thank you for making me aware of it! It looks like there are workarounds, though I'm not sure how much I like them. I've already been doing manual backups. In addition, there is a feature to make a copy of the database before writing that I've just turned on. And the "Use alternative saving method -> Directly write to database file (dangerous)" option is supposed to prevent this issue from happening with cloud storage. I wasn't in any way arguing KeepassXC is a layperson-friendly way to manage authentication credentials, just that it gives you the most security from the big identity providers (Apple, Google) selling you out for political or selfish reasons. Of course, there's probably only so much I can do here. Apple could presumable ship an update to their OS that allows them to access a user's database while it's unlocked, or to keylog the master password. A yubikey might be the only thing that can really protect you here.
- akomtu 3y ago
  When Apple or Google receives a request to give user data, and they get thousands of such requests, they compare the cost of complying and the cost of not complying. I'll tell you an open secret that such companies are doormat-level compliant and are very very proud of that.
  - lrhegeba 3y ago
    please stop spreading unfounded and vicious rumours - or show us some proof.
    - akomtu 3y ago
      Am I talking to the hive mind of HN? If not, let others think for themselves.
- noAnswer 3y ago
  Remember Snoden. IIRC only two or three guys in all of Skype knew about/worked on the backdoor. Everyone else would have sworn it is end to end encrypted all the time.
- nottorp 3y ago
  > This is a personal belief based on chatting with Apple and Google employees. Have you chatted with the Apple and Google CEOs? How about with the future Apple and Google CEOs?

e2e encryption is one forced update away from being plain text.

by akomtu 3y ago

e2e encryption is one forced update away from being plain text.

I trust big tech companies more than I trust startups or smaller tech companies. I have faith that neither Apple nor Google would do that. This is a personal belief based on chatting with Apple and Google employees. You don't have to agree.

pcthrowaway 3y ago
Regardless of how much you trust them, the fact that they can force a decryption of these keys (and selectively, per-user, no less) means that you are not in custody of your own authentication identity. Add to that, they can be legally compelled to take such a measure (and I'm sure they will in due time). Compared to using, say, KeepassXC with a unique, secure password per vault. Now you can sync on iCloud or google drive, but neither Google nor Apple can decrypt the vault; the keepassXC maintainers presumably could make a malicious update (which you'd still have to accept, since the updates aren't forced on you), but that would also affect the security of everyone using KeepassXC (and potentially be much more harmful to the economy and society as a whole than the government is willing to accept in order to get intel on an individual person of interest)
- n0zmer 3y ago
  KeepassXC has a ways to go still before I can trust it. I just attempted to use it again, after a few years, and syncing the DB across google drive randomly caused all of my entries to be erased. No recovery, nothing. just opened the DB one day and all of my saved notes and passwords went poof. It's a know bug, but the fact that it still exists really shows how much the devs care about making it a really rock solid alternative. I've never had this issue with Google passwords, 1password or any other provider.
  - pcthrowaway 3y ago
    Oh for sure, KeepassXC has some UI issues. And in this case, a glaring bug, thank you for making me aware of it! It looks like there are workarounds, though I'm not sure how much I like them. I've already been doing manual backups. In addition, there is a feature to make a copy of the database before writing that I've just turned on. And the "Use alternative saving method -> Directly write to database file (dangerous)" option is supposed to prevent this issue from happening with cloud storage. I wasn't in any way arguing KeepassXC is a layperson-friendly way to manage authentication credentials, just that it gives you the most security from the big identity providers (Apple, Google) selling you out for political or selfish reasons. Of course, there's probably only so much I can do here. Apple could presumable ship an update to their OS that allows them to access a user's database while it's unlocked, or to keylog the master password. A yubikey might be the only thing that can really protect you here.
akomtu 3y ago
When Apple or Google receives a request to give user data, and they get thousands of such requests, they compare the cost of complying and the cost of not complying. I'll tell you an open secret that such companies are doormat-level compliant and are very very proud of that.
- lrhegeba 3y ago
  please stop spreading unfounded and vicious rumours - or show us some proof.
  - akomtu 3y ago
    Am I talking to the hive mind of HN? If not, let others think for themselves.
noAnswer 3y ago
Remember Snoden. IIRC only two or three guys in all of Skype knew about/worked on the backdoor. Everyone else would have sworn it is end to end encrypted all the time.
nottorp 3y ago
> This is a personal belief based on chatting with Apple and Google employees. Have you chatted with the Apple and Google CEOs? How about with the future Apple and Google CEOs?