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When you use passkeys with either Apple's iCloud Keychain or Google Password Manager, the key material is end-to-end encrypted. Law enforcement cannot get your

by kccqzy 3y ago

When you use passkeys with either Apple's iCloud Keychain or Google Password Manager, the key material is end-to-end encrypted. Law enforcement cannot get your passkeys through these two big tech companies.

marcrosoft 3y ago
So your keychain is symmetrically encrypted with a password and they don’t store that?
- woodruffw 3y ago
  Among other things, yes[1]. [1]: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/escrow-security-for-icloud-keychain-sec3e341e75d/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/escrow-security-for...
QhwyF3AxE 3y ago
This is a great point. And to respond to the other part of the parent comment about storing "all their credentials with one of the large tech companies" — you don’t even need to do that, if you don’t want to. Apple just extended their Credential Provider API such that passkeys can now be synced using external providers, meaning password manager apps can save and offer passkeys on iOS, iPadOS, and macOS. So you can choose to sync your passkeys with whatever your favorite password manager is. See this page: https://developer.apple.com/passkeys/ https://developer.apple.com/passkeys/ And Google announced a similar API a month or two ago. See the section titled "Passkey support for Android apps" on this page: https://developers.google.com/identity/passkeys/supported-environments#android-passkey-support https://developers.google.com/identity/passkeys/supported-en...
- rjzzleep 3y ago
  You guys conveniently ignores the fact that Apple and Google are still the gatekeepers in that scenario.
  - iknowstuff 3y ago
    How so
  - doublepg23 3y ago
    Yes you need to trust your operating system developer to some extent. If your threat model includes not trusting the company that writes the source code to your OS…don’t use computers I guess?
    - devsda 3y ago
      The concern is not about trust but gatekeeping the providers. For example in the case of email, you generaly dont worry about google reading your email but we should definitely be concerned if gmail allows send & recieve from only few domains or providers it chooses.
    - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
      Suppose one does trust their OS developers. And they want to use some passkey-protected service. Does that service also have to trust the OS developers? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that services can decide whose passkey implementations to trust. Seems like that should be up to the user, not the service.
      - ptman 3y ago
        The user picks the passkey, don't they? Android, Apple or Microsoft. Or Yubikey, or another token.
  - shawnz 3y ago
    But no more than they are the gatekeepers of your password when you use their keyboard software, right?
akomtu 3y ago
e2e encryption is one forced update away from being plain text.
- kccqzy 3y ago
  I trust big tech companies more than I trust startups or smaller tech companies. I have faith that neither Apple nor Google would do that. This is a personal belief based on chatting with Apple and Google employees. You don't have to agree.
  - pcthrowaway 3y ago
    Regardless of how much you trust them, the fact that they can force a decryption of these keys (and selectively, per-user, no less) means that you are not in custody of your own authentication identity. Add to that, they can be legally compelled to take such a measure (and I'm sure they will in due time). Compared to using, say, KeepassXC with a unique, secure password per vault. Now you can sync on iCloud or google drive, but neither Google nor Apple can decrypt the vault; the keepassXC maintainers presumably could make a malicious update (which you'd still have to accept, since the updates aren't forced on you), but that would also affect the security of everyone using KeepassXC (and potentially be much more harmful to the economy and society as a whole than the government is willing to accept in order to get intel on an individual person of interest)
    - n0zmer 3y ago
      KeepassXC has a ways to go still before I can trust it. I just attempted to use it again, after a few years, and syncing the DB across google drive randomly caused all of my entries to be erased. No recovery, nothing. just opened the DB one day and all of my saved notes and passwords went poof. It's a know bug, but the fact that it still exists really shows how much the devs care about making it a really rock solid alternative. I've never had this issue with Google passwords, 1password or any other provider.
      - pcthrowaway 3y ago
jojobas 3y ago
Until law enforcement asks them to make an exception for you in a sealed court decision.
notatoad 3y ago
For apple, yes. but as i understand it, your passkeys are not synced or stored in google password manager, they are only stored on device and never synced through or stored on google servers.
lern_too_spel 3y ago
When Apple or Google control the endpoints (the password manager apps on your devices), they can get the keys at the ends if they really want to.
croes 3y ago
>Law enforcement cannot get your passkeys through these two big tech companies. Of course they can, just not from the stored cloud data. But that's just software. One little patch and your cloud sync is without E2E.
Double_a_92 3y ago
What is it encrypted by? Or asked differently, what does the user need to have to decrypt it on all their devices? And how can we know that Apple & Co. don't also have access to that? It's not like Law enforcement hacks into your connection, they just force the company to hand out your data.

by kccqzy 3y ago

marcrosoft 3y ago

So your keychain is symmetrically encrypted with a password and they don’t store that?

woodruffw 3y ago
Among other things, yes[1]. [1]: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/escrow-security-for-icloud-keychain-sec3e341e75d/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/escrow-security-for...

QhwyF3AxE 3y ago

This is a great point. And to respond to the other part of the parent comment about storing "all their credentials with one of the large tech companies" — you don’t even need to do that, if you don’t want to. Apple just extended their Credential Provider API such that passkeys can now be synced using external providers, meaning password manager apps can save and offer passkeys on iOS, iPadOS, and macOS. So you can choose to sync your passkeys with whatever your favorite password manager is. See this page: https://developer.apple.com/passkeys/ https://developer.apple.com/passkeys/ And Google announced a similar API a month or two ago. See the section titled "Passkey support for Android apps" on this page: https://developers.google.com/identity/passkeys/supported-environments#android-passkey-support https://developers.google.com/identity/passkeys/supported-en...

rjzzleep 3y ago
You guys conveniently ignores the fact that Apple and Google are still the gatekeepers in that scenario.
- iknowstuff 3y ago
  How so
- doublepg23 3y ago
  Yes you need to trust your operating system developer to some extent. If your threat model includes not trusting the company that writes the source code to your OS…don’t use computers I guess?
  - devsda 3y ago
    The concern is not about trust but gatekeeping the providers. For example in the case of email, you generaly dont worry about google reading your email but we should definitely be concerned if gmail allows send & recieve from only few domains or providers it chooses.
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    Suppose one does trust their OS developers. And they want to use some passkey-protected service. Does that service also have to trust the OS developers? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that services can decide whose passkey implementations to trust. Seems like that should be up to the user, not the service.
    - ptman 3y ago
      The user picks the passkey, don't they? Android, Apple or Microsoft. Or Yubikey, or another token.
- shawnz 3y ago
  But no more than they are the gatekeepers of your password when you use their keyboard software, right?

akomtu 3y ago

e2e encryption is one forced update away from being plain text.

kccqzy 3y ago
I trust big tech companies more than I trust startups or smaller tech companies. I have faith that neither Apple nor Google would do that. This is a personal belief based on chatting with Apple and Google employees. You don't have to agree.
- pcthrowaway 3y ago
  Regardless of how much you trust them, the fact that they can force a decryption of these keys (and selectively, per-user, no less) means that you are not in custody of your own authentication identity. Add to that, they can be legally compelled to take such a measure (and I'm sure they will in due time). Compared to using, say, KeepassXC with a unique, secure password per vault. Now you can sync on iCloud or google drive, but neither Google nor Apple can decrypt the vault; the keepassXC maintainers presumably could make a malicious update (which you'd still have to accept, since the updates aren't forced on you), but that would also affect the security of everyone using KeepassXC (and potentially be much more harmful to the economy and society as a whole than the government is willing to accept in order to get intel on an individual person of interest)
  - n0zmer 3y ago
    KeepassXC has a ways to go still before I can trust it. I just attempted to use it again, after a few years, and syncing the DB across google drive randomly caused all of my entries to be erased. No recovery, nothing. just opened the DB one day and all of my saved notes and passwords went poof. It's a know bug, but the fact that it still exists really shows how much the devs care about making it a really rock solid alternative. I've never had this issue with Google passwords, 1password or any other provider.
    - pcthrowaway 3y ago

jojobas 3y ago

Until law enforcement asks them to make an exception for you in a sealed court decision.

notatoad 3y ago

For apple, yes. but as i understand it, your passkeys are not synced or stored in google password manager, they are only stored on device and never synced through or stored on google servers.

lern_too_spel 3y ago

When Apple or Google control the endpoints (the password manager apps on your devices), they can get the keys at the ends if they really want to.

croes 3y ago

>Law enforcement cannot get your passkeys through these two big tech companies. Of course they can, just not from the stored cloud data. But that's just software. One little patch and your cloud sync is without E2E.

Double_a_92 3y ago

What is it encrypted by? Or asked differently, what does the user need to have to decrypt it on all their devices? And how can we know that Apple & Co. don't also have access to that? It's not like Law enforcement hacks into your connection, they just force the company to hand out your data.