3 ms·

Aframe is very much the angle I'm looking for here. What you are talking about is not hypermedia. It has no user malleability. You can't as a user go change a

Aframe is very much the angle I'm looking for here. What you are talking about is not hypermedia. It has no user malleability. You can't as a user go change a vertex. You can easily do that in aframe. Canvas may be an html element but it's an opaque portal no better than Flash was. It's a low level hack to jump outside of the hypermedia page. The actual web is higher level elements.

Arathorn 3y ago
The inspector which ships in TR TP2 literally gives you the user malleability that you’re looking for - while also supporting properly sandboxed WASM apps. Sure, the glTF isn’t literally part of the HTML DOM - but why should 3D content be part of the HTML DOM? Bitmaps aren’t; Fonts aren’t; JavaScript and WASM state isn’t; video and audio aren’t either. The DOM is for manipulating XML documents. Meanwhile, WebSG gives you malleability alongside a perfectly matched API to manipulating glTF. Okay, to browse the resulting object graph you use TR’s inspector rather than your browser’s devtools, but a dedicated 3D editor UI is obviously going to be better than flailing around in the HTML DOM.
- rektide 3y ago
  This is such limiting minded thinking. The whole 2d space is visible in the DOM. Fuck yes of course 3d space should also be a user visible integrated piece of the hypermedia document. Ideally experiences should blend the two! There was the whole Mozilla Flight of the Navigator demo in 2009 where video elements were nicely integrated into a 3d scene (sandboxing concerns killed this then but with element-capture spec it should be possible again!). This stuff needs to be integrative, not separate universes, dumb opaque canvases driven by code. Fonts & bitmaps seem like bad counter examples to me, disingenuous. Whether we use every outside resource as an excuse to say this doesn't need to be hypermedium, or whether we look opportunistically to build hypermedium as we can seems like a clash of dispositions. I can try to check out this TR TP2 but I really think you are being extremely resistant to what makes the web excellent & throwing chaff. There's a lot of shallow prejudice that html should be kept small, is only for X or Y but not Z, and we keep getting better and better & making more & more excellent componentry that defies this eternal limited-minded doomsaying.

Arathorn 3y ago

The inspector which ships in TR TP2 literally gives you the user malleability that you’re looking for - while also supporting properly sandboxed WASM apps. Sure, the glTF isn’t literally part of the HTML DOM - but why should 3D content be part of the HTML DOM? Bitmaps aren’t; Fonts aren’t; JavaScript and WASM state isn’t; video and audio aren’t either. The DOM is for manipulating XML documents. Meanwhile, WebSG gives you malleability alongside a perfectly matched API to manipulating glTF. Okay, to browse the resulting object graph you use TR’s inspector rather than your browser’s devtools, but a dedicated 3D editor UI is obviously going to be better than flailing around in the HTML DOM.

rektide 3y ago
This is such limiting minded thinking. The whole 2d space is visible in the DOM. Fuck yes of course 3d space should also be a user visible integrated piece of the hypermedia document. Ideally experiences should blend the two! There was the whole Mozilla Flight of the Navigator demo in 2009 where video elements were nicely integrated into a 3d scene (sandboxing concerns killed this then but with element-capture spec it should be possible again!). This stuff needs to be integrative, not separate universes, dumb opaque canvases driven by code. Fonts & bitmaps seem like bad counter examples to me, disingenuous. Whether we use every outside resource as an excuse to say this doesn't need to be hypermedium, or whether we look opportunistically to build hypermedium as we can seems like a clash of dispositions. I can try to check out this TR TP2 but I really think you are being extremely resistant to what makes the web excellent & throwing chaff. There's a lot of shallow prejudice that html should be kept small, is only for X or Y but not Z, and we keep getting better and better & making more & more excellent componentry that defies this eternal limited-minded doomsaying.