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I get that paying for stuff is a pain but apps are a business and there are a ton of expenses involved with any business (a websites, databases, cloud hosting a

I get that paying for stuff is a pain but apps are a business and there are a ton of expenses involved with any business (a websites, databases, cloud hosting are also not free). Having app reviews done by a human is fundamentally expensive. Given that a develop can easily submit a few apps in a year, I'm not really sure that Apple is even making much more than break even on the annual $100 fee. If they are it is small potatoes compared to the 15-33% fees on sales.

dingledork69 3y ago
Not all of them. Did you forget that open source software exists? Or just good old hobbyists.
- dev_tty01 3y ago
  I don't understand this. Why is it that we pay for the computer, storage, cloud services, etc. for a hobby but a $99 fee is somehow terrible? People spend thousands of dollars on all kinds of hobbies. Even if you get someone else to pay for the computer etc., a $99 dollar hobby is ridiculously cheap.
  - dingledork69 3y ago
    I started programming when I was 13. I did not have anywhere close near $99 to spend, so Apple was completely inaccessible to me. Eventually I did make a few thousand from an Android app at 16, which was huge. But at that point I had moved on to other things and never wound up giving Apple their $99. And I also didn't generate several thousand dollars in revenue which they could've taxed 30% of.
    - brookst 3y ago
      And that's unfortunate, and Apple's loss. But for every person like you, that fee probably keeps out orders of magnitude more abuse, spam, trolls, other nonsense. Apple isn't dumb (their evilness is debatable). I'm sure they have tested price points and giving free dev accounts and looked at results. If it produced more harm than good, they'd remove it.
      - dingledork69 3y ago
        And yet somehow Android, Windows, Linux and even MacOS itself all manage to be just fine while still allowing sideloading. Of course MacOS is going down the same dark path by hiding the install option in an obscure menu and lying to the user about potential security issues, but still. iOS is the only platform that supposedly NEEDS to extract this fee. Stop believing Apple's lies, they've been grifting everyone for years.
  - type0 3y ago
    > a $99 dollar hobby is ridiculously cheap. Yeah, go and tell that to hobbyist programmers in any non wealthy country
    - dev_tty01 3y ago
      We shouldn't forget that hobbyist programmers can write and test apps without paying the $99 fee. The tools are freely downloadable. "You can learn how to develop apps for Apple platforms for free without enrolling. With just an Apple ID, you can access Xcode, software downloads, documentation, sample code, forums, and Feedback Assistant, as well as test your apps on devices. If you don’t already have an Apple ID, you can create one now. To distribute apps, join the Apple Developer Program." https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships So the poor hobbyist argument is really a moot point if the point is writing apps for yourself and to learn.
      - dingledork69 3y ago
        But they won't. Nobody wants to work on something that they know they have no chance of sharing with their friends without paying a (for them, in that point of their life) significant sum of money for that privilege.
- type0 3y ago
  Apple is against open source marketplaces, they would fight tooth and nail that something like F-droid could never happen on iOS. They spread FUD on their conferences that open source hobbyist software is full security holes and people should be afraid to use those, the "device owners" are actually renters for them.
  - dingledork69 3y ago
    They have already lost, but most users don't know it yet. The European Digital Market Act will force them to allow side loading. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-13/will-apple-allow-users-to-install-third-party-app-stores-sideload-in-europe https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-13/will-appl...
Apocryphon 3y ago
They’re not arguing against all fees, just a fee that makes more sense (you pay per listing).
- type0 3y ago
  That's not their goal, they want you to be "invested" i.e locked in their ecosystem, as a user and as a developer.
recursive 3y ago
Why should apps be required to be businesses? A lot of the apps I use are not businesses. Sometimes people make good stuff just for fun, or any other reason.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  This is a great question. Apple's fee basically says: "Software development should either be money-losing (developer pays Apple and releases a free app), or it should be a business (developer pays Apple and attempts to make a profit)." There is no room for developers who want to release pure hobby apps with no expectation of commerce. I don't release any of the iOS apps I write. First of all, I would never charge for them, and therefore I cannot justify paying $X/year for the ability to release them. So I do them for my own pleasure and education and that's it.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > hobby apps with no expectation of commerce 99% of this in the real world is spam. Not because it’s malicious. But the app is built for the developer, not the user. That’s not Apple’s MO.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      How many percents of the Linux repositories is spam? What about F-Droid?
    - Alupis 3y ago
      Just because someone cobbles together some code doesn't mean it's going to be listed in the App Store. iOS isn't the only Apple operating system either. There is no "anti-spam" argument that can hold water.
    - pdntspa 3y ago
      Then we should have an alternate means of installing applications. Like sideloading. Whatever happened to the EU Digital Markets act? That was supposed to force apple's hand.
pdntspa 3y ago
blah blah blah blah people make software for fun too... This industry has forgotten its roots.

dingledork69 3y ago

Not all of them. Did you forget that open source software exists? Or just good old hobbyists.

dev_tty01 3y ago
I don't understand this. Why is it that we pay for the computer, storage, cloud services, etc. for a hobby but a $99 fee is somehow terrible? People spend thousands of dollars on all kinds of hobbies. Even if you get someone else to pay for the computer etc., a $99 dollar hobby is ridiculously cheap.
- dingledork69 3y ago
  I started programming when I was 13. I did not have anywhere close near $99 to spend, so Apple was completely inaccessible to me. Eventually I did make a few thousand from an Android app at 16, which was huge. But at that point I had moved on to other things and never wound up giving Apple their $99. And I also didn't generate several thousand dollars in revenue which they could've taxed 30% of.
  - brookst 3y ago
    And that's unfortunate, and Apple's loss. But for every person like you, that fee probably keeps out orders of magnitude more abuse, spam, trolls, other nonsense. Apple isn't dumb (their evilness is debatable). I'm sure they have tested price points and giving free dev accounts and looked at results. If it produced more harm than good, they'd remove it.
    - dingledork69 3y ago
      And yet somehow Android, Windows, Linux and even MacOS itself all manage to be just fine while still allowing sideloading. Of course MacOS is going down the same dark path by hiding the install option in an obscure menu and lying to the user about potential security issues, but still. iOS is the only platform that supposedly NEEDS to extract this fee. Stop believing Apple's lies, they've been grifting everyone for years.
- type0 3y ago
  > a $99 dollar hobby is ridiculously cheap. Yeah, go and tell that to hobbyist programmers in any non wealthy country
  - dev_tty01 3y ago
    We shouldn't forget that hobbyist programmers can write and test apps without paying the $99 fee. The tools are freely downloadable. "You can learn how to develop apps for Apple platforms for free without enrolling. With just an Apple ID, you can access Xcode, software downloads, documentation, sample code, forums, and Feedback Assistant, as well as test your apps on devices. If you don’t already have an Apple ID, you can create one now. To distribute apps, join the Apple Developer Program." https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships So the poor hobbyist argument is really a moot point if the point is writing apps for yourself and to learn.
    - dingledork69 3y ago
      But they won't. Nobody wants to work on something that they know they have no chance of sharing with their friends without paying a (for them, in that point of their life) significant sum of money for that privilege.
type0 3y ago
Apple is against open source marketplaces, they would fight tooth and nail that something like F-droid could never happen on iOS. They spread FUD on their conferences that open source hobbyist software is full security holes and people should be afraid to use those, the "device owners" are actually renters for them.
- dingledork69 3y ago
  They have already lost, but most users don't know it yet. The European Digital Market Act will force them to allow side loading. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-13/will-apple-allow-users-to-install-third-party-app-stores-sideload-in-europe https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-13/will-appl...

Apocryphon 3y ago

They’re not arguing against all fees, just a fee that makes more sense (you pay per listing).

type0 3y ago
That's not their goal, they want you to be "invested" i.e locked in their ecosystem, as a user and as a developer.

recursive 3y ago

Why should apps be required to be businesses? A lot of the apps I use are not businesses. Sometimes people make good stuff just for fun, or any other reason.

ryandrake 3y ago
This is a great question. Apple's fee basically says: "Software development should either be money-losing (developer pays Apple and releases a free app), or it should be a business (developer pays Apple and attempts to make a profit)." There is no room for developers who want to release pure hobby apps with no expectation of commerce. I don't release any of the iOS apps I write. First of all, I would never charge for them, and therefore I cannot justify paying $X/year for the ability to release them. So I do them for my own pleasure and education and that's it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > hobby apps with no expectation of commerce 99% of this in the real world is spam. Not because it’s malicious. But the app is built for the developer, not the user. That’s not Apple’s MO.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    How many percents of the Linux repositories is spam? What about F-Droid?
  - Alupis 3y ago
    Just because someone cobbles together some code doesn't mean it's going to be listed in the App Store. iOS isn't the only Apple operating system either. There is no "anti-spam" argument that can hold water.
  - pdntspa 3y ago
    Then we should have an alternate means of installing applications. Like sideloading. Whatever happened to the EU Digital Markets act? That was supposed to force apple's hand.

pdntspa 3y ago

blah blah blah blah people make software for fun too... This industry has forgotten its roots.