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This is not my personal belief, my personal belief is a lot more nuanced than this, but I do find this to be a very compelling argument against him: Snowden is

This is not my personal belief, my personal belief is a lot more nuanced than this, but I do find this to be a very compelling argument against him: Snowden is a half-way martyr. He made the decision to die for a cause, and then backed out of that decision and swore an oath of allegiance to modern day Hitler. He showed an example of someone who didn't like the consequences of his actions and if you want to escape the consequences of your actions, you do that via corruption: swearing loyalty to someone powerful and reaping the benefits of that loyalty (them shielding you from consequences) in exchange for your servitude. In order to prevent being a victim of corruption, he chose to engage in corruption. Him and Wikileaks together delegitimized the American government and ultimately created a fertile ground for a fascist to be elected president. (I think it's more arguable that Obama was the person who delegitimized the establishment). His ultimate fate, to see his legacy largely ignored and unaddressed, to become a slave to a dictator, and to see that his oath of allegiance calls into question his sacrifice... I don't think America could have created a harsher punishment if we had tried. I think America's founding fathers would understand and be sympathetic to his plight, but be disappointed. FWIW, I have been in rooms talking about hardening infrastructure against government malfeasance. There were a lot of engineers at companies mentioned in prism docs that said "lets assume this is true, how did it happen," and worked on hardening infrastructure against the attacks they could imagine. So while outwardly his sacrifice seems largely in vain, it lives in the memory of many engineers who see hardening their systems against government action as a real importance many of whom donate to many organizations like the EFF.

gdy 3y ago
"modern day Hitler" Just curious, do you consider Bush, who started the Iraq war, to be a modern Hitler too?
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  No. But I do think he's a war criminal who irreparably damaged this country in countless ways and not subjecting himself to the ICC is a denial of everything America says it represents. Bush did more damage to America than Russia could ever hope to have done. I think he damaged America more than Trump. I think America's time in Iraq was not fundamentally genocidal and I don't remember America violently putting down opposition to the war at home so I think it falls short of "Hitler". While we did destroy the regime, I don't think we tried to destroy the notion of "iraq" or of being "iraqi." I could be convinced that we were worse than I think.
  - gdy 3y ago
    I think you are using 'genocidal' frivolously here. 'I don't think we tried to destroy the notion of "iraq" or of being "iraqi."' That's not what genocide is.[0] Destroying 'notions' isn't a genocide. (That's without delving into argument of whether or not Putin's actions fit such description.) "In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." "I don't remember America violently putting down opposition to the war at home" I don't think there was much opposition[1] thanks to American free mass media[2] and ones who did protest occasionally got arrested. [3][4] Situation in Russia now is harsher, of course, but still. "I could be convinced that we were worse than I think." Don't really want to, my point is that Hitler has set a pretty high bar and both Bush and Putin failed to reach it. So far at least :( Look at the genocide in Rwanda, that's what qualifies as a good attempt. As a side note, do you remember Bush's Freudian slip when he said Iraq instead of Ukraine? The laugh in the audience is pretty disturbing [5]. I'd expect somber silence full of regret. [0] https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War#Scope_and_impact_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War#... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/world/from-the-editors-the-times-and-iraq.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/world/from-the-editors-th... [3] http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/17/sprj.irq.antiwar.protests/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/17/sprj.irq.antiw... [4] http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/01/19/sproj.irq.peace.protests/ http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/01/19/sproj.irq.peace.protest... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y23mTSviCZo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y23mTSviCZo
    - mcv 3y ago
      Why is he using it frivolously? He says Bush didn't do any of those things. > Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." Keep in mind: Putin does do these things. Ukrainian children are separated from their families and placed with Russian families to be raised as Russians. That's genocide. Adult Ukrainians have reportedly also been deported and made to live as Russians on the other side of Russia, separate from other Ukrainians. There's plenty of talk in the Russian media that all Ukrainians believe Ukrainian is a valid ethnicity should be killed. And we've seen the result of massacres. Sure, Putin doesn't do industrial scale murder of millions the way Hitler did, but as you point out, genocide is broader than that.
mcv 3y ago
The fact that he found refuge in Russia is a great tragedy. I strongly preferred that a European country had offered him refuge. Switzerland, perhaps? But US intelligence has long and strong arms, and I guess Russia seemed like the safest place at the time. And then Putin went full fascist and now he's stuck there.
- dTal 3y ago
  Russia did not "seem like the safest place at the time". He was en-route to Ecuador from Hong Kong, with a layover in Moscow, when the US State Department canceled his passport. In a quite direct sense, the United States put him in Russia against his will.
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  > The fact that he found refuge in Russia is a great tragedy. This really is the core of it. If it were anywhere but Russia, I would probably hail him as a hero who made a great sacrifice, but instead despite my general distrust and dislike of the US government, I feel like his motives deserve questioning. I am open to being convinced that I am over emphasizing Russia. I am definitely no Snowden scholar and I'm not very well read past the various headlines and comments I've read over the years.
dTal 3y ago
>I don't think America could have created a harsher punishment if we had tried. Lol. After Assange/Manning, that demonstrates a singular failure of imagination.
_yb2s 3y ago
So the argument against him is that he isn't Socrates? He just wanted to get the truth out there and then beyond that minimize the damage to himself and his family, when he could/should have voluntarily become a full fledged martyr, for no extra benefit to anyone?
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  He could have followed legal whistleblower channels or went to Congress but chose not to.
  - mcv 3y ago
    Those channels didn't work. I believe Thomas Drake used them and accomplished nothing.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
      Could you please cite where Thomas Drake used them? From my quick research it appears he went to the press.
      - mcv 3y ago
        I don't have sources at hand. I think I read a long time ago that he did use those channels, but I could certainly be wrong. I'm certain about having read knowledgeable claims that those channels didn't work, but if that wasn't about Thomas Drake, then I forgot the context.
        2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
        Rereading, I think you're right. I should read up on this case more, never had heard of it.
  - digisign 3y ago
    He did and was told to shut up. And how did it work out for the folks who pressed on?
sethd 3y ago
> swore an oath of allegiance to modern day Hitler Any proof to back up this wild claim?
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/12/02/edward-snowden-russian-citizenship/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/12/02/edward-snowd... Certainly it's debatable whether swearing an oath to Russia is the same as swearing an oath to Putin. I don't believe there's much of one.
  - sethd 3y ago
    That’s not the same at, he swore no oath to Putin. He had no choice but to acquire a Russian citizenship since the US gov stranded him there. Unless you think rotting in a US super max prison for the rest of your life is a viable choice. He blew the whistle and he doesn’t owe you anything and certainly doesn’t owe it to you to make a martyr of himself. Pathetic.
  - _yb2s 3y ago
    That’s a pretty absurd way to frame becoming a citizen of a country he was involuntarily forced to live in so that he can’t be deported away from his own kids. It’s not like he decided to kneel before Putin and swear fealty.
    - juunpp 3y ago
      Thanks for bringing some reason to the stupidest non-argument in this thread. GesWaPo = fake news.
  - marcusb 3y ago
    I think the “wild claim” that evidence was being requested to substantiate was calling Putin a “modern day Hitler.”
    - mcv 3y ago

gdy 3y ago

"modern day Hitler" Just curious, do you consider Bush, who started the Iraq war, to be a modern Hitler too?

hayst4ck 3y ago
No. But I do think he's a war criminal who irreparably damaged this country in countless ways and not subjecting himself to the ICC is a denial of everything America says it represents. Bush did more damage to America than Russia could ever hope to have done. I think he damaged America more than Trump. I think America's time in Iraq was not fundamentally genocidal and I don't remember America violently putting down opposition to the war at home so I think it falls short of "Hitler". While we did destroy the regime, I don't think we tried to destroy the notion of "iraq" or of being "iraqi." I could be convinced that we were worse than I think.
- gdy 3y ago
  I think you are using 'genocidal' frivolously here. 'I don't think we tried to destroy the notion of "iraq" or of being "iraqi."' That's not what genocide is.[0] Destroying 'notions' isn't a genocide. (That's without delving into argument of whether or not Putin's actions fit such description.) "In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." "I don't remember America violently putting down opposition to the war at home" I don't think there was much opposition[1] thanks to American free mass media[2] and ones who did protest occasionally got arrested. [3][4] Situation in Russia now is harsher, of course, but still. "I could be convinced that we were worse than I think." Don't really want to, my point is that Hitler has set a pretty high bar and both Bush and Putin failed to reach it. So far at least :( Look at the genocide in Rwanda, that's what qualifies as a good attempt. As a side note, do you remember Bush's Freudian slip when he said Iraq instead of Ukraine? The laugh in the audience is pretty disturbing [5]. I'd expect somber silence full of regret. [0] https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War#Scope_and_impact_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War#... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/world/from-the-editors-the-times-and-iraq.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/world/from-the-editors-th... [3] http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/17/sprj.irq.antiwar.protests/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/17/sprj.irq.antiw... [4] http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/01/19/sproj.irq.peace.protests/ http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/01/19/sproj.irq.peace.protest... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y23mTSviCZo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y23mTSviCZo
  - mcv 3y ago
    Why is he using it frivolously? He says Bush didn't do any of those things. > Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." Keep in mind: Putin does do these things. Ukrainian children are separated from their families and placed with Russian families to be raised as Russians. That's genocide. Adult Ukrainians have reportedly also been deported and made to live as Russians on the other side of Russia, separate from other Ukrainians. There's plenty of talk in the Russian media that all Ukrainians believe Ukrainian is a valid ethnicity should be killed. And we've seen the result of massacres. Sure, Putin doesn't do industrial scale murder of millions the way Hitler did, but as you point out, genocide is broader than that.

mcv 3y ago

The fact that he found refuge in Russia is a great tragedy. I strongly preferred that a European country had offered him refuge. Switzerland, perhaps? But US intelligence has long and strong arms, and I guess Russia seemed like the safest place at the time. And then Putin went full fascist and now he's stuck there.

dTal 3y ago
Russia did not "seem like the safest place at the time". He was en-route to Ecuador from Hong Kong, with a layover in Moscow, when the US State Department canceled his passport. In a quite direct sense, the United States put him in Russia against his will.
hayst4ck 3y ago
> The fact that he found refuge in Russia is a great tragedy. This really is the core of it. If it were anywhere but Russia, I would probably hail him as a hero who made a great sacrifice, but instead despite my general distrust and dislike of the US government, I feel like his motives deserve questioning. I am open to being convinced that I am over emphasizing Russia. I am definitely no Snowden scholar and I'm not very well read past the various headlines and comments I've read over the years.

dTal 3y ago

>I don't think America could have created a harsher punishment if we had tried. Lol. After Assange/Manning, that demonstrates a singular failure of imagination.

_yb2s 3y ago

So the argument against him is that he isn't Socrates? He just wanted to get the truth out there and then beyond that minimize the damage to himself and his family, when he could/should have voluntarily become a full fledged martyr, for no extra benefit to anyone?

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
He could have followed legal whistleblower channels or went to Congress but chose not to.
- mcv 3y ago
  Those channels didn't work. I believe Thomas Drake used them and accomplished nothing.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    Could you please cite where Thomas Drake used them? From my quick research it appears he went to the press.
    - mcv 3y ago
      I don't have sources at hand. I think I read a long time ago that he did use those channels, but I could certainly be wrong. I'm certain about having read knowledgeable claims that those channels didn't work, but if that wasn't about Thomas Drake, then I forgot the context.
      - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
        Rereading, I think you're right. I should read up on this case more, never had heard of it.
- digisign 3y ago
  He did and was told to shut up. And how did it work out for the folks who pressed on?

sethd 3y ago

> swore an oath of allegiance to modern day Hitler Any proof to back up this wild claim?

hayst4ck 3y ago
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/12/02/edward-snowden-russian-citizenship/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/12/02/edward-snowd... Certainly it's debatable whether swearing an oath to Russia is the same as swearing an oath to Putin. I don't believe there's much of one.
- sethd 3y ago
  That’s not the same at, he swore no oath to Putin. He had no choice but to acquire a Russian citizenship since the US gov stranded him there. Unless you think rotting in a US super max prison for the rest of your life is a viable choice. He blew the whistle and he doesn’t owe you anything and certainly doesn’t owe it to you to make a martyr of himself. Pathetic.
- _yb2s 3y ago
  That’s a pretty absurd way to frame becoming a citizen of a country he was involuntarily forced to live in so that he can’t be deported away from his own kids. It’s not like he decided to kneel before Putin and swear fealty.
  - juunpp 3y ago
    Thanks for bringing some reason to the stupidest non-argument in this thread. GesWaPo = fake news.
- marcusb 3y ago
  I think the “wild claim” that evidence was being requested to substantiate was calling Putin a “modern day Hitler.”
  - mcv 3y ago