5 ms·

> Except you can't. Some of these objections sound like saying we're not really listening to music on our phones, I guess because there's not really a band pla

> Except you can't. Some of these objections sound like saying we're not really listening to music on our phones, I guess because there's not really a band playing, or because of the lossy sound encoding or something. In fact, we _are_ listening to music, in a way that people seem to enjoy and which has been democratized far beyond previous possibilities for listening to music.

manicdee 3y ago
More like "we're not really listening to music on our phones for free". These days everything is a subscription. Then games are released where every cosmetic change is paid for, so you can be max level with the best gear but you'll still look like a beginner character because you haven't paid for the cosmetic upgrades to go along with the extra gear you won along the way. Change the wallpaper in your virtual apartment, huh? You'll absolutely be paying for that. Some people will save money by just coping with the walls being non-stop ads for anti-depressants and pills for erectile dysfunction. Perhaps they'll take their headset off and do everything through command lines. Pity if the headset eventually evolves into implants that pump images and sounds directly into your brain.
- moi2388 3y ago
  Well I don’t know about you, but if I want a free app to change my wallpaper and there isn’t one I’ll just write one. It’s totally a choice to pay.
  - alexvoda 3y ago
    Talking about wallpapers is derailing the conversation. The point was that just as we see the social networks of today and the games of today getting enshitified so will every VR experience get enshitified. As for writing it yourself, care to talk about the price of the developer account, the approval process, the risk of getting banned, the ever changing API surface, the time you use for all of this, etc. etc.? You are NOT the owner of anything in the "metaverse". You are just allowed the privilege of playing in the platform owners sandbox as long as you pay. When the platform owner will decide it is profitable to exploit users ability to set wallpapers there is nothing you as a user or as a developer on top of the platform will be able to do to counter that. Here, read this (1) and watch this (2) and tell me you feel confident the same will not happen to any "metaverse". (1) https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys (2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g16heGLKlTA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g16heGLKlTA
    - anonomousename 3y ago
      Your app does not need to get approved if you are the only one using it - in fact you don’t even need to have a developer account if you’re the only one using it and are ok resigning the app occasionally. With regards to enshittification: all the examples listed were software companies or service companies. I don’t see any hardware companies on there, and I’d go so far as to say hardware companies that sell with high margins do not undergo enshittification. From the article: “… they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers …” Apple doesn’t have business customers. Their core business strategy is not to sell ads, or data, but rather hardware.
      - alexvoda 3y ago
        Your first paragraph misses the point. The argument was not about the current rules of any current platform. It was about the potential for abuse on future VR/AR platforms by platform owners. The platform owners are the rule makers and can change the rules at any point. Others platforms like the gaming consoles are proof the rules can be a lot tighter. Apple is in no way excluded from enshitification. Apple refusing to support more than one external monitor on non-Pro or non-Max M* laptops is an example in hardware by virtue of being intentional market segmentation. On the software side, ads are slowly encroaching previously ad-free spaces on Apple software too. Apple is also a services company providing everything from an ads platform to apps marketplaces to media to payment services to banking services and leveraging their position in anticompetitive ways. It's platforms are subject to the same pressures of enshitification. The part you quoted is just one of the steps. The strategy for a platform is to act as an indispensable middleman and abuse everyone both upstream and downstream.
alexvoda 3y ago
First of all, people still go to concerts and will not stop anytime soon. Even if people enjoy music in a variety of ways, people very much still enjoy live music for being live. So it is a bad counter example. Secondly, all of the examples above were examples of trying to avoid reality. A pathological form of escapism. Why push so hard for such a shitty future where escapism is the only option? Black Mirror is a warning not a manual. Are you really that unimaginative that you can not imagine a better future than the shittiest of dystopias? Also, good enough technology is not an argument. More optimistic scifi like Star Trek has the holodeck with a realism level of ~100%. Yet people don't just spend all of their time in it because reality is amazing in it's own way. Why bring about a future where reality is so undesirable? Also, as I said, there is absolutely no way VR spaces will not get enshitified the same way all current platforms are. In all VR spaces you will absolutely be the product while also being milked for every single micro-transaction you can pay.
- unusualmonkey 3y ago
  > Secondly, all of the examples above were examples of trying to avoid reality. 1) What makes reality important? 2) What is the definition of reality? > In all VR spaces you will absolutely be the product while also being milked for every single micro-transaction you can pay. How does that differ from reality? Are you not paying for the walls that are presumably around you right now?
  - alexvoda 3y ago
    I will not dignify your questions with an answer because they are a philosophical derailment. And turning the conversation into one about solipsism and epistemological nihilism is a dead end. Related to this, the simulation hypothesis is nothing but repackaged theism. Many have treaded this territory and nothing of use was discovered. Besides, I was the one who asked first the much more pragmatic question of why some people consider such a dystopian future to be desirable.
    - canadianfella 3y ago
      [dead]

manicdee 3y ago

More like "we're not really listening to music on our phones for free". These days everything is a subscription. Then games are released where every cosmetic change is paid for, so you can be max level with the best gear but you'll still look like a beginner character because you haven't paid for the cosmetic upgrades to go along with the extra gear you won along the way. Change the wallpaper in your virtual apartment, huh? You'll absolutely be paying for that. Some people will save money by just coping with the walls being non-stop ads for anti-depressants and pills for erectile dysfunction. Perhaps they'll take their headset off and do everything through command lines. Pity if the headset eventually evolves into implants that pump images and sounds directly into your brain.

moi2388 3y ago
Well I don’t know about you, but if I want a free app to change my wallpaper and there isn’t one I’ll just write one. It’s totally a choice to pay.
- alexvoda 3y ago
  Talking about wallpapers is derailing the conversation. The point was that just as we see the social networks of today and the games of today getting enshitified so will every VR experience get enshitified. As for writing it yourself, care to talk about the price of the developer account, the approval process, the risk of getting banned, the ever changing API surface, the time you use for all of this, etc. etc.? You are NOT the owner of anything in the "metaverse". You are just allowed the privilege of playing in the platform owners sandbox as long as you pay. When the platform owner will decide it is profitable to exploit users ability to set wallpapers there is nothing you as a user or as a developer on top of the platform will be able to do to counter that. Here, read this (1) and watch this (2) and tell me you feel confident the same will not happen to any "metaverse". (1) https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys (2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g16heGLKlTA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g16heGLKlTA
  - anonomousename 3y ago
    Your app does not need to get approved if you are the only one using it - in fact you don’t even need to have a developer account if you’re the only one using it and are ok resigning the app occasionally. With regards to enshittification: all the examples listed were software companies or service companies. I don’t see any hardware companies on there, and I’d go so far as to say hardware companies that sell with high margins do not undergo enshittification. From the article: “… they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers …” Apple doesn’t have business customers. Their core business strategy is not to sell ads, or data, but rather hardware.
    - alexvoda 3y ago
      Your first paragraph misses the point. The argument was not about the current rules of any current platform. It was about the potential for abuse on future VR/AR platforms by platform owners. The platform owners are the rule makers and can change the rules at any point. Others platforms like the gaming consoles are proof the rules can be a lot tighter. Apple is in no way excluded from enshitification. Apple refusing to support more than one external monitor on non-Pro or non-Max M* laptops is an example in hardware by virtue of being intentional market segmentation. On the software side, ads are slowly encroaching previously ad-free spaces on Apple software too. Apple is also a services company providing everything from an ads platform to apps marketplaces to media to payment services to banking services and leveraging their position in anticompetitive ways. It's platforms are subject to the same pressures of enshitification. The part you quoted is just one of the steps. The strategy for a platform is to act as an indispensable middleman and abuse everyone both upstream and downstream.

alexvoda 3y ago

First of all, people still go to concerts and will not stop anytime soon. Even if people enjoy music in a variety of ways, people very much still enjoy live music for being live. So it is a bad counter example. Secondly, all of the examples above were examples of trying to avoid reality. A pathological form of escapism. Why push so hard for such a shitty future where escapism is the only option? Black Mirror is a warning not a manual. Are you really that unimaginative that you can not imagine a better future than the shittiest of dystopias? Also, good enough technology is not an argument. More optimistic scifi like Star Trek has the holodeck with a realism level of ~100%. Yet people don't just spend all of their time in it because reality is amazing in it's own way. Why bring about a future where reality is so undesirable? Also, as I said, there is absolutely no way VR spaces will not get enshitified the same way all current platforms are. In all VR spaces you will absolutely be the product while also being milked for every single micro-transaction you can pay.

unusualmonkey 3y ago
> Secondly, all of the examples above were examples of trying to avoid reality. 1) What makes reality important? 2) What is the definition of reality? > In all VR spaces you will absolutely be the product while also being milked for every single micro-transaction you can pay. How does that differ from reality? Are you not paying for the walls that are presumably around you right now?
- alexvoda 3y ago
  I will not dignify your questions with an answer because they are a philosophical derailment. And turning the conversation into one about solipsism and epistemological nihilism is a dead end. Related to this, the simulation hypothesis is nothing but repackaged theism. Many have treaded this territory and nothing of use was discovered. Besides, I was the one who asked first the much more pragmatic question of why some people consider such a dystopian future to be desirable.
  - canadianfella 3y ago
    [dead]