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> Go players have DECREASED their ELO after playing AlphaGo (or just quit the game altogether) Can you explain this for someone unfamiliar with the game?

by vosper 3y ago

scotty79 3y ago
Maybe they just lost so their ELO went down? Or do loses against AI not count?
- rcxdude 3y ago
  Either way, in ELO it depends on the ELO of your opponent, and so a loss against an AI with an accurate (very high) ELO is not going to lose you much unless you're one of the best players in the world (heck, in chess, Magnus Carlsen's ELO would still go down by literally nothing from losing against stockfish).
dfan 3y ago
I am familiar with the game and I cannot explain it. Go is not typically rated with the Elo system, and the quality of top-level human play has increased since 2016.
- nahstra 3y ago
  I also play some, and yeah that's incorrect. Also, there was recently a bunch of hype about an adversarial strategy that could beat AIs w/o deep readout (i.e. only using the 'policy network' nonlinear ML stuff and not enough actual calculation). Here's a vid of an amateur doing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4DvCj4ySKM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4DvCj4ySKM EDIT: Also, if you want to get into it, Micheal Redmond's Go TV on youtube has an amazing beginner playlist, watch some of that then maybe blacktoplay.com and if you likey play :)
- 29athrowaway 3y ago
  That is correct but in game servers, ranks (e.g.: 1 kyu, 1 dan) are computed via Elo-like means. https://forums.online-go.com/t/how-does-the-rating-system-work/23407/3 https://forums.online-go.com/t/how-does-the-rating-system-wo...
schaefer 3y ago
Lee Sedol retired in 2019 following his 2016 defeat by Alpha Go in a 5 round match. At the start of the match most people were confident an AI could never defeat a top human player at Go. By the end of the match, watching (arguable) world champ Sedol suffer lost game after lost game the story had changed dramatically. Sedol fans were championing his single win against the unstoppable AI. We (hacker news) discussed Lee Sedol's retirement here: [1] To active go players at the time, Alpha Go and Alpha Zero really were as shocking as the debut of Chat GTP was recently. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21649495 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21649495
- jart 3y ago
  The story with Lee Sedol gets even sadder when you look at his rankings chart: https://www.goratings.org/en/players/5.html https://www.goratings.org/en/players/5.html He immediately lost his heart for the game even though he officially kept playing another three years.
  - schaefer 3y ago
    I thought I knew the story. But I'd never seen this graph. Thank you for breaking my heart all over again, jart.
- fastball 3y ago
  This is correct history, but not the point TaupeRanger was trying to make (I believe). I think their assertion is that the release of AlphaGo has actually made human Go players worse at the game, contrasted with chess where most agree that the introduction of Superhuman chess engines has elevated the (human) state of play. But I don't think there is actually much evidence for that. I'm sure the introduction of AlphaGo did take the wind out of some players sails, who thought of themselves as superior to our best computers, but for everyone else it seems to have elevated the overall level of play just the same as the chess engines have done.
  - TaupeRanger 3y ago
    I don't think that AlphaGo has made players worse. My point is that there's no evidence that anything USEFUL or IMPORTANT has come from a system that has gotten so much hype (and cost ungodly amounts of money). If players aren't getting better (there's no evidence they are) or are quitting the game after playing, it's simply a net negative, along with DeepMind's other ventures.

> Go players have DECREASED their ELO after playing AlphaGo (or just quit the game altogether) Can you explain this for someone unfamiliar with the game?

by vosper 3y ago

> Go players have DECREASED their ELO after playing AlphaGo (or just quit the game altogether) Can you explain this for someone unfamiliar with the game?

scotty79 3y ago

Maybe they just lost so their ELO went down? Or do loses against AI not count?

rcxdude 3y ago
Either way, in ELO it depends on the ELO of your opponent, and so a loss against an AI with an accurate (very high) ELO is not going to lose you much unless you're one of the best players in the world (heck, in chess, Magnus Carlsen's ELO would still go down by literally nothing from losing against stockfish).

dfan 3y ago

I am familiar with the game and I cannot explain it. Go is not typically rated with the Elo system, and the quality of top-level human play has increased since 2016.

nahstra 3y ago
I also play some, and yeah that's incorrect. Also, there was recently a bunch of hype about an adversarial strategy that could beat AIs w/o deep readout (i.e. only using the 'policy network' nonlinear ML stuff and not enough actual calculation). Here's a vid of an amateur doing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4DvCj4ySKM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4DvCj4ySKM EDIT: Also, if you want to get into it, Micheal Redmond's Go TV on youtube has an amazing beginner playlist, watch some of that then maybe blacktoplay.com and if you likey play :)
29athrowaway 3y ago
That is correct but in game servers, ranks (e.g.: 1 kyu, 1 dan) are computed via Elo-like means. https://forums.online-go.com/t/how-does-the-rating-system-work/23407/3 https://forums.online-go.com/t/how-does-the-rating-system-wo...

schaefer 3y ago

Lee Sedol retired in 2019 following his 2016 defeat by Alpha Go in a 5 round match. At the start of the match most people were confident an AI could never defeat a top human player at Go. By the end of the match, watching (arguable) world champ Sedol suffer lost game after lost game the story had changed dramatically. Sedol fans were championing his single win against the unstoppable AI. We (hacker news) discussed Lee Sedol's retirement here: [1] To active go players at the time, Alpha Go and Alpha Zero really were as shocking as the debut of Chat GTP was recently. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21649495 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21649495

jart 3y ago
The story with Lee Sedol gets even sadder when you look at his rankings chart: https://www.goratings.org/en/players/5.html https://www.goratings.org/en/players/5.html He immediately lost his heart for the game even though he officially kept playing another three years.
- schaefer 3y ago
  I thought I knew the story. But I'd never seen this graph. Thank you for breaking my heart all over again, jart.
fastball 3y ago
This is correct history, but not the point TaupeRanger was trying to make (I believe). I think their assertion is that the release of AlphaGo has actually made human Go players worse at the game, contrasted with chess where most agree that the introduction of Superhuman chess engines has elevated the (human) state of play. But I don't think there is actually much evidence for that. I'm sure the introduction of AlphaGo did take the wind out of some players sails, who thought of themselves as superior to our best computers, but for everyone else it seems to have elevated the overall level of play just the same as the chess engines have done.
- TaupeRanger 3y ago
  I don't think that AlphaGo has made players worse. My point is that there's no evidence that anything USEFUL or IMPORTANT has come from a system that has gotten so much hype (and cost ungodly amounts of money). If players aren't getting better (there's no evidence they are) or are quitting the game after playing, it's simply a net negative, along with DeepMind's other ventures.