3 ms·

This was the most comprehensive study I have read: [300 page pdf - warning] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://energy.mit.edu/wp-con

This was the most comprehensive study I have read: [300 page pdf - warning] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://energy.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/MITEI-The-Future-of-the-Electric-Grid.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi14rz16bH_AhVMLUQIHabqA64QFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0R20YFdeI5BgklNJzJgNLz https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... I have always been skeptical that grid storage was the hidden cost of solar, and that multiple weeks of total grid output storage were needed, but this makes convincing arguments that only a few hours of storage is needed, even in difficult areas.

fooblaster 3y ago
Crap, posted the wrong link earlier. What I meant to post was a different study from the same series. https://energy.mit.edu/research/future-of-energy-storage/ https://energy.mit.edu/research/future-of-energy-storage/
ftth_finland 3y ago
A few hours in nowhere near enough. In Finland solar produces no power three months of the year. The months before and after that are marginal. To add joy, there are windstill periods of days, sometimes more than a week, in winter. To add insult to injury, there isn't enough transmission capability to import all the renewable energy we would need to solely rely on renewables. There isn't enough hydro either so rely on that to take up the slack. So, grid storage really is the hidden cost of both solar and wind, and multiple weeks of total grid output storage is needed for energy security if relying on renewables. To reinterate, I really want to learn more about real long term storage. Anybody know where I can find solid info on that?
- fooblaster 3y ago
  did you read parts of the link at all?
  - ftth_finland 3y ago
    Yes, but it's 280 pages. Which parts in particular address long term storage? Searching for "storage" gives very few hits. This was perhaps the most pertinent hit: "IT IS GENERALLY NOT ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE TO store electricity in bulk. The widespread deployment of new storage technologies and/ or high penetrations of electric vehicles may someday change this, but these developments are unlikely before 2030." along with this: "Compressed air energy storage (CAES) is the only other storage technology [other than pumped hydro] that has achieved long-term utility-scale operation. ... Only two utility-scale CAES facilities have been constructed worldwide: a 290 MW facility with two hours of storage in Huntorf, Germany, that entered commercial operations in 1978 and a 110 MW facility with 26 hours of storage in McIntosh, Alabama, that entered commercial operations in 1991." Not very much to go on, now is there.
    - fooblaster 3y ago
      This is my fault. I posted the wrong study: https://energy.mit.edu/research/future-of-energy-storage/ https://energy.mit.edu/research/future-of-energy-storage/ See chapter 6 for modeling storage and the amount of storage needed for various levels of decarbonization.

fooblaster 3y ago

Crap, posted the wrong link earlier. What I meant to post was a different study from the same series. https://energy.mit.edu/research/future-of-energy-storage/ https://energy.mit.edu/research/future-of-energy-storage/

ftth_finland 3y ago

A few hours in nowhere near enough. In Finland solar produces no power three months of the year. The months before and after that are marginal. To add joy, there are windstill periods of days, sometimes more than a week, in winter. To add insult to injury, there isn't enough transmission capability to import all the renewable energy we would need to solely rely on renewables. There isn't enough hydro either so rely on that to take up the slack. So, grid storage really is the hidden cost of both solar and wind, and multiple weeks of total grid output storage is needed for energy security if relying on renewables. To reinterate, I really want to learn more about real long term storage. Anybody know where I can find solid info on that?

fooblaster 3y ago
did you read parts of the link at all?
- ftth_finland 3y ago
  Yes, but it's 280 pages. Which parts in particular address long term storage? Searching for "storage" gives very few hits. This was perhaps the most pertinent hit: "IT IS GENERALLY NOT ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE TO store electricity in bulk. The widespread deployment of new storage technologies and/ or high penetrations of electric vehicles may someday change this, but these developments are unlikely before 2030." along with this: "Compressed air energy storage (CAES) is the only other storage technology [other than pumped hydro] that has achieved long-term utility-scale operation. ... Only two utility-scale CAES facilities have been constructed worldwide: a 290 MW facility with two hours of storage in Huntorf, Germany, that entered commercial operations in 1978 and a 110 MW facility with 26 hours of storage in McIntosh, Alabama, that entered commercial operations in 1991." Not very much to go on, now is there.
  - fooblaster 3y ago
    This is my fault. I posted the wrong study: https://energy.mit.edu/research/future-of-energy-storage/ https://energy.mit.edu/research/future-of-energy-storage/ See chapter 6 for modeling storage and the amount of storage needed for various levels of decarbonization.