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I am not talking about which has more inherent 'power'. I am talking about who is incentivized to employ intrusive surveillance to influence our lives. Which a

I am not talking about which has more inherent 'power'. I am talking about who is incentivized to employ intrusive surveillance to influence our lives. Which are corporations. For example look at this "free" 55" TV: https://www.cnet.com/tech/home-entertainment/telly-offers-free-55-inch-tvs-but-heres-what-it-will-actually-cost-you/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/home-entertainment/telly-offers-fr... While U.S. Government does have a lot of competing interests that makes the management and control of such a costly surveillance apparatus highly unlikely (I am not talking about just listening to communication traffic but actively trying to run private American lives). That is, there isn't a way for one party to hold control over that operation and keep it hidden to such a degree as to not risk losing that power when different people get elected. Compared to PRC there's already enough concentrated power to do an operation like that. Answer me this question: If the U.S. government had a secret national surveillance system to have control over our lives, what would they actually be influencing us to do?

SllX 3y ago
And the thing you’re missing is that they are both incentivized but for different reasons. Corporations mostly just want your money. Governments seek power, or rather the officers of government seek power. > That is, there isn't a way for one party to hold control over that operation and keep it hidden to such a degree as to not risk losing that power when different people get elected. If different people get elected. You asked what people would use a surveillance fielded by the US government to do, and the answer is: take out the competition, or try to. I’m not judging whether it would be successful, that would come down to the actual facts and circumstances of such a surveillance program and the people behind it, but with such a surveillance program in place you have a much better shot than without one at holding power long enough to take out the competition. And while you’re at it, why not change the rules of the game? And then once you’ve changed the rules of the game, why not change the entire system in which the game is played? America is not exceptional in a way that would make the American public immune to this, but we are very resistant, as you have alluded to, to the US government trying in part because there is enough of us that are by disposition so extremely skeptical of anything the government wants to do for good or for ill that yeah, it wouldn’t be an easy operation to clandestinely pull off. But if someone did, they would use it to take out the competition.
- thx-2718 3y ago
  Right so you're agreeing that the Government (U.S.) doesn't exactly have an easy path. Hence why I am more concerned about Corporate surveillance than I am over Government influencing our lives.
  - SllX 3y ago
    Not having an easy path doesn’t make it less of a concern. Treating it like it’s something we shouldn’t be concerned about is how it becomes an easier path. Corporate surveillance is by comparison much easier to deal with in your own home: stop buying and using crap that surveils you. If you don’t trust that something won’t surveil you, don’t allow it into your home. Now I say this is easier, but it’s still not easy, but at worst a corporation will get me to spend a little bit more money with them (probably not, I hate buying things). The worst a government can do is legally kill me with no repercussions to the people who pull the trigger or the ones who ordered them to.
    - thx-2718 3y ago
      > stop buying and using crap that surveils you. What if there aren't any options? Most stores are moving over to self-check outs with facial recognition... More and more things are requiring smart phones. Job applications. Timesheets to log your hours worked. Digital tracking in equipment and vehicles. Insurance companies lowering rates if they can track your car. etc. The worst that private companies can do is lobby government to make something innocuous but common illegal with unreasonably long sentences so that they can targetedly lock up a portion of the population and use them as slaves.
      - SllX 3y ago
        Maybe you’ve forgotten that we actually do live in a free country. There is always a choice and people make those choices every day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish Even they have figured out how to work modern technology into their communities in a structured way. What you choose to buy and use comes down to what you value. How you use it is a reflection of how much power you give it. > Most stores are moving over to self-check outs with facial recognition... So what? You’re on someone else’s premises at that point. Your loss of privacy vis a vis what goes in the shopping cart is a given. 20 years ago cameras were already pervasive in supermarkets, they were just worse at being cameras than a modern installation. People have been giving up their phone number to get glorified coupons at Safeway since the 90s, which tags your receipt with whatever name you filled out when you punch it in. If you prefer not to do that, you look for the small grocers, or the farmers, or whatever but you structure your life around what you value most. If you value your privacy the utmost, you can have that up in Alaska hunting game with your next door neighbor 200 miles away. If you value a different lifestyle, you’ll have that instead. > The worst that private companies can do is lobby government to make something innocuous but common illegal with unreasonably long sentences so that they can targetedly lock up a portion of the population and use them as slaves. So the worst thing that corporations can do in your estimation is beg the government to spare some of the government’s power for their use; in competition with other corporations who might want to use it differently or have conflicting ideas about how the government’s power should be used. In the end it comes back down to the government’s power.

SllX 3y ago

And the thing you’re missing is that they are both incentivized but for different reasons. Corporations mostly just want your money. Governments seek power, or rather the officers of government seek power. > That is, there isn't a way for one party to hold control over that operation and keep it hidden to such a degree as to not risk losing that power when different people get elected. If different people get elected. You asked what people would use a surveillance fielded by the US government to do, and the answer is: take out the competition, or try to. I’m not judging whether it would be successful, that would come down to the actual facts and circumstances of such a surveillance program and the people behind it, but with such a surveillance program in place you have a much better shot than without one at holding power long enough to take out the competition. And while you’re at it, why not change the rules of the game? And then once you’ve changed the rules of the game, why not change the entire system in which the game is played? America is not exceptional in a way that would make the American public immune to this, but we are very resistant, as you have alluded to, to the US government trying in part because there is enough of us that are by disposition so extremely skeptical of anything the government wants to do for good or for ill that yeah, it wouldn’t be an easy operation to clandestinely pull off. But if someone did, they would use it to take out the competition.

thx-2718 3y ago
Right so you're agreeing that the Government (U.S.) doesn't exactly have an easy path. Hence why I am more concerned about Corporate surveillance than I am over Government influencing our lives.
- SllX 3y ago
  Not having an easy path doesn’t make it less of a concern. Treating it like it’s something we shouldn’t be concerned about is how it becomes an easier path. Corporate surveillance is by comparison much easier to deal with in your own home: stop buying and using crap that surveils you. If you don’t trust that something won’t surveil you, don’t allow it into your home. Now I say this is easier, but it’s still not easy, but at worst a corporation will get me to spend a little bit more money with them (probably not, I hate buying things). The worst a government can do is legally kill me with no repercussions to the people who pull the trigger or the ones who ordered them to.
  - thx-2718 3y ago
    > stop buying and using crap that surveils you. What if there aren't any options? Most stores are moving over to self-check outs with facial recognition... More and more things are requiring smart phones. Job applications. Timesheets to log your hours worked. Digital tracking in equipment and vehicles. Insurance companies lowering rates if they can track your car. etc. The worst that private companies can do is lobby government to make something innocuous but common illegal with unreasonably long sentences so that they can targetedly lock up a portion of the population and use them as slaves.
    - SllX 3y ago
      Maybe you’ve forgotten that we actually do live in a free country. There is always a choice and people make those choices every day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish Even they have figured out how to work modern technology into their communities in a structured way. What you choose to buy and use comes down to what you value. How you use it is a reflection of how much power you give it. > Most stores are moving over to self-check outs with facial recognition... So what? You’re on someone else’s premises at that point. Your loss of privacy vis a vis what goes in the shopping cart is a given. 20 years ago cameras were already pervasive in supermarkets, they were just worse at being cameras than a modern installation. People have been giving up their phone number to get glorified coupons at Safeway since the 90s, which tags your receipt with whatever name you filled out when you punch it in. If you prefer not to do that, you look for the small grocers, or the farmers, or whatever but you structure your life around what you value most. If you value your privacy the utmost, you can have that up in Alaska hunting game with your next door neighbor 200 miles away. If you value a different lifestyle, you’ll have that instead. > The worst that private companies can do is lobby government to make something innocuous but common illegal with unreasonably long sentences so that they can targetedly lock up a portion of the population and use them as slaves. So the worst thing that corporations can do in your estimation is beg the government to spare some of the government’s power for their use; in competition with other corporations who might want to use it differently or have conflicting ideas about how the government’s power should be used. In the end it comes back down to the government’s power.