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> Self driving isn't a sensor problem, its a software problem. Taking things to the extreme, perhaps it’s actually a networking problem. Cars should have the

by cj 3y ago

> Self driving isn't a sensor problem, its a software problem. Taking things to the extreme, perhaps it’s actually a networking problem. Cars should have the ability to send signals and hear signals from the cars around it. Imagine if Car A could improve its own understanding of the environment using inputs/sensor data from nearby Car B.

hedora 3y ago
For this to work, either (1) the network has to be reliable, and all cars have to be trustworthy (both from a security and fault tolerance perspective), or (2) the cars have to be safe even when disconnected from the network, such as during an evacuation. We already know for sure that we can’t solve (1), which means we have to solve (2). Therefore, car-to-car communication is, at best, a value add, not the enabling technology.
iknowstuff 3y ago
Not much would change. The idiotic idea of removing traffic lights in favor of self driving cars zipping past each other forgets about those pesky pedestrians we should be designing cities for.
- cratermoon 3y ago
  pedestrians, cyclists, skateboarders, and all the other road users that the US car-centric society has determined are "hazards" to driving.
- cj 3y ago
  When I wrote the comment, I was envisioning the current world, but with some bluetooth type protocol that cars could use to send beacons to help other cars near it. The most basic example of how this could be helpful is if the car ahead of you turns a sharp corner and crashes into a truck stopped in the road. Without car-to-car networking, you won't brake until the crash is in your line of sight. Have you ever seen those youtube videos of massive car pile ups on highways caused by a crash, and then a cascade of additional crashes afterwards? E.g. icy conditions or dense fog. What if the original crash could communicate to cars behind it, wouldn't that be helpful if the crash isn't yet in the driver's (or car's) line of sight? I agree "not much would change" overnight. It's just another input for the car's software to have at its disposal. With the current hardware on the roads, I don't think it's technically possible for autos to achieve legitimate self-driving (if that's even the goal anymore?) - there are way too many edge cases that are way too difficult to solve for with just software.
root_axis 3y ago
A total security nightmare.
andix 3y ago
And what happens if there is a child on the road? Or are we going to need implanted transmitter chips in the future, so we can safely go outside and are not overrun by „smart“ cars? Even if every car is required to be part of the network, there may be badly maintained cars that don’t work properly, or even malicious cars, that send wrong data on purpose.
kajecounterhack 3y ago
> Imagine if Car A could improve its own understanding of the environment using inputs/sensor data from nearby Car B. You can't rely on this in real time because urban canyons make it hard to get consistent cell signal (for one thing), but you can definitely improve your models on this data once the data's been uploaded to your offline systems, and some SDC companies do this.
- stevenhuang 3y ago
  A system of this sort could use some local area networking (think infrared, RF, or even lasers) to create an adhoc mesh network. It's how I imagine cars in the future to be networked at least.
ActorNightly 3y ago
It would create a better model, but this is not necessary. Cars are already "networked" through things like turn signals and brake lights.
- cj 3y ago
  Something more is necessary if "self-driving" is going to actually live up to its name at some point in the future, and I don't think the answer is 100% software. At this point it's all about edge cases. Certain edge cases are impossible to overcome with just software + cameras alone.
  - ActorNightly 3y ago
    Most humans can drive fairly well in heavy downpour, solely from the brake lights of the car and occasional glimpses of road markings. Thats almost equivalent to a very poor sensor suite.
shagie 3y ago
I'd suggest giving Car Wars by Cory Doctorow a read. https://doctorow.medium.com/car-wars-a01718a27e9e https://doctorow.medium.com/car-wars-a01718a27e9e It involves a situation with networked self driving cars.

by cj 3y ago

hedora 3y ago

For this to work, either (1) the network has to be reliable, and all cars have to be trustworthy (both from a security and fault tolerance perspective), or (2) the cars have to be safe even when disconnected from the network, such as during an evacuation. We already know for sure that we can’t solve (1), which means we have to solve (2). Therefore, car-to-car communication is, at best, a value add, not the enabling technology.

iknowstuff 3y ago

Not much would change. The idiotic idea of removing traffic lights in favor of self driving cars zipping past each other forgets about those pesky pedestrians we should be designing cities for.

cratermoon 3y ago
pedestrians, cyclists, skateboarders, and all the other road users that the US car-centric society has determined are "hazards" to driving.
cj 3y ago
When I wrote the comment, I was envisioning the current world, but with some bluetooth type protocol that cars could use to send beacons to help other cars near it. The most basic example of how this could be helpful is if the car ahead of you turns a sharp corner and crashes into a truck stopped in the road. Without car-to-car networking, you won't brake until the crash is in your line of sight. Have you ever seen those youtube videos of massive car pile ups on highways caused by a crash, and then a cascade of additional crashes afterwards? E.g. icy conditions or dense fog. What if the original crash could communicate to cars behind it, wouldn't that be helpful if the crash isn't yet in the driver's (or car's) line of sight? I agree "not much would change" overnight. It's just another input for the car's software to have at its disposal. With the current hardware on the roads, I don't think it's technically possible for autos to achieve legitimate self-driving (if that's even the goal anymore?) - there are way too many edge cases that are way too difficult to solve for with just software.

root_axis 3y ago

A total security nightmare.

andix 3y ago

And what happens if there is a child on the road? Or are we going to need implanted transmitter chips in the future, so we can safely go outside and are not overrun by „smart“ cars? Even if every car is required to be part of the network, there may be badly maintained cars that don’t work properly, or even malicious cars, that send wrong data on purpose.

kajecounterhack 3y ago

> Imagine if Car A could improve its own understanding of the environment using inputs/sensor data from nearby Car B. You can't rely on this in real time because urban canyons make it hard to get consistent cell signal (for one thing), but you can definitely improve your models on this data once the data's been uploaded to your offline systems, and some SDC companies do this.

stevenhuang 3y ago
A system of this sort could use some local area networking (think infrared, RF, or even lasers) to create an adhoc mesh network. It's how I imagine cars in the future to be networked at least.

ActorNightly 3y ago

It would create a better model, but this is not necessary. Cars are already "networked" through things like turn signals and brake lights.

cj 3y ago
Something more is necessary if "self-driving" is going to actually live up to its name at some point in the future, and I don't think the answer is 100% software. At this point it's all about edge cases. Certain edge cases are impossible to overcome with just software + cameras alone.
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  Most humans can drive fairly well in heavy downpour, solely from the brake lights of the car and occasional glimpses of road markings. Thats almost equivalent to a very poor sensor suite.

shagie 3y ago

I'd suggest giving Car Wars by Cory Doctorow a read. https://doctorow.medium.com/car-wars-a01718a27e9e https://doctorow.medium.com/car-wars-a01718a27e9e It involves a situation with networked self driving cars.