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You would be out of your mind to pick a Corolla or Civic over the Model 3 today, especially with the dealer markups on the Corolla and Civic (and other traditio

You would be out of your mind to pick a Corolla or Civic over the Model 3 today, especially with the dealer markups on the Corolla and Civic (and other traditional ICE vehicles)

slondr 3y ago
Even with the full federal tax credit this is still 50% more expensive than a Corolla or Impreza. (Civics are hard to find at MSRP still.) The Bolt would be a much, much better Corolla-killer if they weren’t discontinuing it soon in favor of $100,000 land yachts.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  TCO is a better measure than upfront price alone. People don't want to buy golf carts (wrt the Bolt), sell what people will give you money for. https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/04/tesla-model-3-lifecycle-cost-nearly-matches-the-cheapest-car-in-america/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/04/tesla-model-3-lifecycle...
  - itsoktocry 3y ago
    Why would depreciation be included in a calculation like that? So if you buy a $40,000 car one day, and the next day it's worthless, your TCO is somehow $80,000? That makes no sense. Oh, and there is no way the average owner is spending $5000 a year in maintenance and repairs in the first 5 years on a car like that. I've owned multiple new cars over the past decade, and I bet I've spent that much combined. Pretty magical and convenient that this person was able to adjust the TCO down to be comparable though, isn't it? Amazing that anyone sensible would believe it. The TCO comes down to gas savings (substantial) and a difference in maintenance costs (backloaded in the Tesla). Here that's less than $7k.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > there is no way the average owner is spending $5000 a year in maintenance and repairs in the first 5 years on a car like that If I need to put $5000 in a year into the maintenance and repairs of any vehicle, I'm calling that vehicle a lemon and ditching is ASAP.
- shiftpgdn 3y ago
  Are those low MSRP Corollas or Imprezzas something you can actually buy? I was car shopping last year and all the "entry level" sedans were priced at $35,000+.
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    2021-2022 was a wacky time for buying a car. For the EV I've been looking at, prices have gone from $10k above MSRP last year to $3k-$5k below now
  - itsoktocry 3y ago
    You can get a new Hyundai Elantra off the lot for less than $25k CAD. That's sub-20K USD? Not a car I'd be particularly excited about. But they're reliable, decent standard options and really good on fuel (had a rental achieving 4 l/100km on the highway).
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  >Even with the full federal tax credit this is still 50% more expensive than a Corolla or Impreza. Precisely. How are people unaware of what cars cost? I guess it's because people live in a bubble and pass around the same handful of Eletrek articles. If you're trying to save money, you will need to save a ton of fuel to make up the price of a cheap Toyota or Mazda car with a Tesla. Years and years worth. It's certainly not a "no brainer" decision. And what do you think happens when governments decide to tack a surcharge on the energy your at-home charger is using to power your car. That's coming, believe it.
  - MostlyStable 3y ago
    We just recently bought a Hyundai Kona electric. While it was a good 10K more than similarly sized ICE vehicles (and the ICE version of the Kona), our fuel savings are >$100/month, and our monthly payments for the comparable ICE vehicles was not 100 dollars cheaper. And that's completely ignoring savings after the vehicle is paid off. This may not be true for all vehicle types/price points, but for the type of vehicle we needed, the electric was cheaper for us to buy. Now yes, if all you need is _a_ car, you can get the cheapest ICE car for significantly cheaper than the cheapest EV. But if you need a specific type of car, that's not always true. At least for new vehicles. Used EVs are barely a thing yet, and so if you are willing to buy used, then ICE vehicles likely become much cheaper again.
penjelly 3y ago
> You would be out of your mind to pick a Corolla or Civic over the Model 3 today disagree. in Canada a model 3 base is still ~60k for delivery in 2 months. Civic is ~30k not sure how long for delivery tho.
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  >Civic is ~30k not sure how long for delivery tho It's been a few months since I've been looking, but Civics were touch-and-go in Canada for a while. Dealers were getting a few a month, most spoken for. But you could get one. At my local dealer they were asking more for used Civics than the new models. I couldn't do it.
- shiftpgdn 3y ago
  The Canada market and buying power is so small it’s mostly irrelevant in economics discussions
JohnFen 3y ago
Why? Personally, I find a Corolla or Civic to be a much more attractive car than a Tesla.
- WhyCause 3y ago
  Bingo. I find the styling of Teslas to be so boring and same-y. I also hate the design laziness of "only a central display panel", and I really, really want buttons and knobs.

You would be out of your mind to pick a Corolla or Civic over the Model 3 today, especially with the dealer markups on the Corolla and Civic (and other traditional ICE vehicles)

slondr 3y ago

Even with the full federal tax credit this is still 50% more expensive than a Corolla or Impreza. (Civics are hard to find at MSRP still.) The Bolt would be a much, much better Corolla-killer if they weren’t discontinuing it soon in favor of $100,000 land yachts.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
TCO is a better measure than upfront price alone. People don't want to buy golf carts (wrt the Bolt), sell what people will give you money for. https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/04/tesla-model-3-lifecycle-cost-nearly-matches-the-cheapest-car-in-america/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/04/tesla-model-3-lifecycle...
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  Why would depreciation be included in a calculation like that? So if you buy a $40,000 car one day, and the next day it's worthless, your TCO is somehow $80,000? That makes no sense. Oh, and there is no way the average owner is spending $5000 a year in maintenance and repairs in the first 5 years on a car like that. I've owned multiple new cars over the past decade, and I bet I've spent that much combined. Pretty magical and convenient that this person was able to adjust the TCO down to be comparable though, isn't it? Amazing that anyone sensible would believe it. The TCO comes down to gas savings (substantial) and a difference in maintenance costs (backloaded in the Tesla). Here that's less than $7k.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > there is no way the average owner is spending $5000 a year in maintenance and repairs in the first 5 years on a car like that If I need to put $5000 in a year into the maintenance and repairs of any vehicle, I'm calling that vehicle a lemon and ditching is ASAP.
shiftpgdn 3y ago
Are those low MSRP Corollas or Imprezzas something you can actually buy? I was car shopping last year and all the "entry level" sedans were priced at $35,000+.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  2021-2022 was a wacky time for buying a car. For the EV I've been looking at, prices have gone from $10k above MSRP last year to $3k-$5k below now
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  You can get a new Hyundai Elantra off the lot for less than $25k CAD. That's sub-20K USD? Not a car I'd be particularly excited about. But they're reliable, decent standard options and really good on fuel (had a rental achieving 4 l/100km on the highway).
itsoktocry 3y ago
>Even with the full federal tax credit this is still 50% more expensive than a Corolla or Impreza. Precisely. How are people unaware of what cars cost? I guess it's because people live in a bubble and pass around the same handful of Eletrek articles. If you're trying to save money, you will need to save a ton of fuel to make up the price of a cheap Toyota or Mazda car with a Tesla. Years and years worth. It's certainly not a "no brainer" decision. And what do you think happens when governments decide to tack a surcharge on the energy your at-home charger is using to power your car. That's coming, believe it.
- MostlyStable 3y ago
  We just recently bought a Hyundai Kona electric. While it was a good 10K more than similarly sized ICE vehicles (and the ICE version of the Kona), our fuel savings are >$100/month, and our monthly payments for the comparable ICE vehicles was not 100 dollars cheaper. And that's completely ignoring savings after the vehicle is paid off. This may not be true for all vehicle types/price points, but for the type of vehicle we needed, the electric was cheaper for us to buy. Now yes, if all you need is _a_ car, you can get the cheapest ICE car for significantly cheaper than the cheapest EV. But if you need a specific type of car, that's not always true. At least for new vehicles. Used EVs are barely a thing yet, and so if you are willing to buy used, then ICE vehicles likely become much cheaper again.

penjelly 3y ago

> You would be out of your mind to pick a Corolla or Civic over the Model 3 today disagree. in Canada a model 3 base is still ~60k for delivery in 2 months. Civic is ~30k not sure how long for delivery tho.

itsoktocry 3y ago
>Civic is ~30k not sure how long for delivery tho It's been a few months since I've been looking, but Civics were touch-and-go in Canada for a while. Dealers were getting a few a month, most spoken for. But you could get one. At my local dealer they were asking more for used Civics than the new models. I couldn't do it.
shiftpgdn 3y ago
The Canada market and buying power is so small it’s mostly irrelevant in economics discussions

JohnFen 3y ago

Why? Personally, I find a Corolla or Civic to be a much more attractive car than a Tesla.

WhyCause 3y ago
Bingo. I find the styling of Teslas to be so boring and same-y. I also hate the design laziness of "only a central display panel", and I really, really want buttons and knobs.