4 ms·

While I agree that there is some work in the field that is important, there is an absolute deluge of ideologically driven garbage. There is also a lot of garbag

While I agree that there is some work in the field that is important, there is an absolute deluge of ideologically driven garbage. There is also a lot of garbage of the "yeah, duh, of-fucking-course" variety. studies like "negative interactions with community reduce feelings of belonging" ... uh yeah, no shit sherlock. And then even the more important stuff cannot be investigated in the same rigorous manner as other scientific disciplines. I think we just need to stop calling sociology papers "scientific". Fundamentally, they are not, and should almost always be taken with a massive grain of salt, and they damn sure shouldn't be influencing public policy decisions to the degree that they currently do.

arp242 3y ago
> There is also a lot of garbage of the "yeah, duh, of-fucking-course" variety. studies like "negative interactions with community reduce feelings of belonging" ... uh yeah, no shit sherlock. I think these studies are useful, first of all to test whether it's actually true because sometimes "well du'h" turns out to be wrong, but also to quantify the exact effects. Is it a large effect or a small effect? How large exactly? Which factors exactly contribute to this effect? What exactly is the breakdown of the effects? It might be possible that 20% of the people are effected by it and 80% of people are not; or perhaps everyone is effected by it. There's often all sorts of non-obvious nuance that's possible, which can be very significant.
- DontchaKnowit 3y ago
  Yes, that is true. However, I would posit that the actual result of the most well researched, scientifically backed, rigorous results in all of sociology essentially amounts to empowering governments and private companies to produce more effective advertising, propaganda, etc.
  - arp242 3y ago
    That seems overly cynical. At the end of the day sociology is like any other science: "find out more about the world". Doing that is rarely a bad thing.
anonymouskimmer 3y ago
> There is also a lot of garbage of the "yeah, duh, of-fucking-course" variety. studies like "negative interactions with community reduce feelings of belonging" ... uh yeah, no shit sherlock. The importance of these studies are often not the expected results, but the average magnitude of the effect, and the parsing out of confounders. Do chronic minor negative interactions have more of an effect on feelings of belonging than a single major negative interaction? This has policy implications. What are the effects of negative interactions on highly social versus highly non-social individuals? What sorts of coping mechanisms do these two very disparate groups use to deal with negative community interactions? I can think of a bunch more questions answerable by this type of research that don't have obvious answers. The importance of these questions depend on the magnitude and confounders of the original question. > I think we just need to stop calling sociology papers "scientific". Fundamentally, they are not They are, or are capable of being, as scientific as Darwin's crude observations of finch phenotypes.
- DontchaKnowit 3y ago
  I also do not regard Darwin as particularly scientific, though he broke open some flood gates for very scientific research. And your comments on policy implications are precisely what I am saying we should avoid - Why would we set policy based on studies which 1) are not scientifically rigorous (based on self reporting, surveys, small population, low ability to control confounding variables, etc) 2) do not actually suggest that policy would be effective in rectifying the problems identified in the study and 3) do not necessarily identify problems (e.g. is it really the business of the government to set policy with the aim of optimizing some self reported individual metric, such as feelings of belonging?)
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    > Why would we set policy based on studies which We shouldn't. If self-reports are ever used to set policy (and they should be) this should be on an individualized, ad hoc basis. If a squeaky wheel comes to you, oil it. Maybe ask around if there are other squeaky wheels that no one in power is paying attention to. Oil them too. But don't go around oiling every wheel as a matter of policy, as you will end up with a bunch of overly oiled wheels having problems from over oiling. Plenty of sociological studies (such as education interventions) aren't based on self-reports, but tested results. > is it really the business of the government to set policy with the aim of optimizing some self reported individual metric, such as feelings of belonging? The general governmental purpose here wouldn't be to make everyone feel like they belong, but to decrease as much as possible mass shooters, abusers, and the like. And to make it easy for people to report problems they are having, or for outsiders to discover problems. The Turpin case could have been nipped in the bud if the adults and children who noticed how unkempt and smelly the oldest daughter was when she was briefly publicly schooled had intervened (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turpin_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turpin_case ).

arp242 3y ago

> There is also a lot of garbage of the "yeah, duh, of-fucking-course" variety. studies like "negative interactions with community reduce feelings of belonging" ... uh yeah, no shit sherlock. I think these studies are useful, first of all to test whether it's actually true because sometimes "well du'h" turns out to be wrong, but also to quantify the exact effects. Is it a large effect or a small effect? How large exactly? Which factors exactly contribute to this effect? What exactly is the breakdown of the effects? It might be possible that 20% of the people are effected by it and 80% of people are not; or perhaps everyone is effected by it. There's often all sorts of non-obvious nuance that's possible, which can be very significant.

DontchaKnowit 3y ago
Yes, that is true. However, I would posit that the actual result of the most well researched, scientifically backed, rigorous results in all of sociology essentially amounts to empowering governments and private companies to produce more effective advertising, propaganda, etc.
- arp242 3y ago
  That seems overly cynical. At the end of the day sociology is like any other science: "find out more about the world". Doing that is rarely a bad thing.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago

> There is also a lot of garbage of the "yeah, duh, of-fucking-course" variety. studies like "negative interactions with community reduce feelings of belonging" ... uh yeah, no shit sherlock. The importance of these studies are often not the expected results, but the average magnitude of the effect, and the parsing out of confounders. Do chronic minor negative interactions have more of an effect on feelings of belonging than a single major negative interaction? This has policy implications. What are the effects of negative interactions on highly social versus highly non-social individuals? What sorts of coping mechanisms do these two very disparate groups use to deal with negative community interactions? I can think of a bunch more questions answerable by this type of research that don't have obvious answers. The importance of these questions depend on the magnitude and confounders of the original question. > I think we just need to stop calling sociology papers "scientific". Fundamentally, they are not They are, or are capable of being, as scientific as Darwin's crude observations of finch phenotypes.

DontchaKnowit 3y ago
I also do not regard Darwin as particularly scientific, though he broke open some flood gates for very scientific research. And your comments on policy implications are precisely what I am saying we should avoid - Why would we set policy based on studies which 1) are not scientifically rigorous (based on self reporting, surveys, small population, low ability to control confounding variables, etc) 2) do not actually suggest that policy would be effective in rectifying the problems identified in the study and 3) do not necessarily identify problems (e.g. is it really the business of the government to set policy with the aim of optimizing some self reported individual metric, such as feelings of belonging?)
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  > Why would we set policy based on studies which We shouldn't. If self-reports are ever used to set policy (and they should be) this should be on an individualized, ad hoc basis. If a squeaky wheel comes to you, oil it. Maybe ask around if there are other squeaky wheels that no one in power is paying attention to. Oil them too. But don't go around oiling every wheel as a matter of policy, as you will end up with a bunch of overly oiled wheels having problems from over oiling. Plenty of sociological studies (such as education interventions) aren't based on self-reports, but tested results. > is it really the business of the government to set policy with the aim of optimizing some self reported individual metric, such as feelings of belonging? The general governmental purpose here wouldn't be to make everyone feel like they belong, but to decrease as much as possible mass shooters, abusers, and the like. And to make it easy for people to report problems they are having, or for outsiders to discover problems. The Turpin case could have been nipped in the bud if the adults and children who noticed how unkempt and smelly the oldest daughter was when she was briefly publicly schooled had intervened (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turpin_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turpin_case ).