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You are hallucinating complete nonsense here. Just think for a second, if such a thing was possible, why would it be restricted to "UFOs"? Obviously, such an

You are hallucinating complete nonsense here. Just think for a second, if such a thing was possible, why would it be restricted to "UFOs"? Obviously, such an illness would be well known.

George83728 3y ago
> if such a thing was possible, why would it be restricted to "UFOs"? Who said it is? Tons of people report seeing all manner of nonsense.
- Loquebantur 3y ago
  The prevalence of mental illnesses leading to visual hallucination is very low actually. The idea of whole departments in the US government being staffed with them is absurdist nonsense.
  - gitfan86 3y ago
    "normally functioning" brains see things that are not actually there ALL the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion Most UFO reports fall into the Optical Illusion category rather than extreme schizophrenia.
    - Loquebantur 3y ago
      Optical illusions are not at all the same thing as visual hallucinations. Your allegation about UFO reports is accordingly simply incorrect.
      - gitfan86 3y ago
        Right, so your point about people not having hallucinations frequently is valid. But most people do see optical illusions. So it seems strange that you have jumped to the conclusion that these must be real UFOs since most people do not hallucinate.
        Loquebantur 3y ago
        I did not jump to that conclusion, you are putting words in my mouth. The whistleblower reports of the existence of a research program that he was briefed about. He testifies this program was stuying non-human technology, among that functioning craft, aka "flying saucers". The determination of it being non-human in orgin was due to extensive material analysis, evident morphology and working characteistics of those devices.
        gitfan86 3y ago
        "Someone claims that someone else told him material exists that is from aliens."
        xpe 3y ago
        > "Someone claims that someone else told him material exists that is from aliens." I think I take your point: he doesn't have firsthand experience seeing the evidence. That said, the quote "Someone claims that someone else told him material exists that is from aliens." doesn't by itself convey the significance of these other people being high ranking intelligence officials. A trained intelligence professional has much more analytical skill and credibility than a person randomly sampled from the U.S. population. > The Debrief reported that Grusch’s knowledge of non-human materials and vehicles was based on “extensive interviews with high-level intelligence officials”. He said he had reported the existence of a UFO material “recovery program” to Congress. > “Grusch said that the craft recovery operations are ongoing at various levels of activity and that he knows the specific individuals, current and former, who are involved,” the Debrief reported. > In the Debrief article, Grusch does not say he has personally seen alien vehicles, nor does he say where they may be being stored. He asked the Debrief to withhold details of retaliation by government officials due to an ongoing investigation.
    - stef25 3y ago
      > Most UFO reports fall into the Optical Illusion category Indeed. Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendlesham_Forest_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendlesham_Forest_incident you can listen to the audio recording of some soldiers investigating what happened at the site of a proposed UFO landing, where they observe weird lights and scorch marks on trees. There's another page some guy set up where he posts photos he took himself at the site and even used screenshots from a TV interview of one of the witnesses of the event to clearly show that those lights were easily explain by surrounding structures (light house etc) and the marks on trees were probably left by lumberjacks. I'm baffled how a bunch of trained soldiers investigating over several days can just "conclude" that it was all very mysterious stuff going on and that, despite it being clearly debunked, this event is still seen as THE UFO event in the UK. Then again I have no idea how these latest videos of flying objects can be explained. To a lay person like myself it just seems completely crazy. How can a pilot claiming to see things fly at supersonic speeds doing impossible maneuvers be explained by a problem with the lens and / or "it's just a weather balloon". The "explanations" of it being ufos seem completely believable to me.
  - dsfsder3423 3y ago
    Really low chances that the cameras and other 70 sensor arrays located across an entire fleet of the US Navy are hallucinating simultaneously that they seeing, detecting an UAP. Or 20 UAPs zooming around, in and out from water, up and down from low Earth orbit in seconds.
    - gitfan86 3y ago
      You have the math backwards. It would be like saying that someone who guesses your 4 letter pin code is a mind reader because the likelihood of that is low. You are not factoring in how many times he has tried to guess other people's pins. Or if some pins are more common than others. Similarly here you are not factoring in how often an entire group of sensors has the same big and repots incorrect data at the same time in the same way. You are Cherry picking the one time the data looked like it might be a UFO. This is also a form of confirmation bias.
  - jjk166 3y ago
    It's less of a hallucination and more like a mirage - there's some real stimulus but the mind grossly misinterprets it. Most people don't see mirages regularly, but anyone could see a mirage under the right circumstances.
  - George83728 3y ago
    Maybe so, but presuming such a visual hallucination phenomena exists, who said it's limited to aliens? xpe didn't say it only manifests as UFO sightings. Besides UFOs, you've got tons of people claiming to see big foot, ghosts, monster fish, angels, ball lightning, etc...
  - stef25 3y ago
    > The idea of whole departments in the US government being staffed with them is absurdist nonsense. Someone who works in astrophysics for a govt entity in the US told me they have such massive budgets that it's not uncommon to throw some of it to some weird department just as a favor or to keep up the public's interest in "space stuff". Another person (working at ESA) confirmed it, they both rolled their eyes and claimed it was all BS. NOT saying this is definitive truth.
xpe 3y ago
First, your tone comes across as unnecessarily uncivil. Your comments could be rephrased to better promote curious discussion. Second, I will respond in terms of the charitable substance of your comment. I think there is some useful back-and-forth to be had. Please be specific: part is “complete nonsense” to you; which of the following applies? 1. You reject the predictive processing theory? Why? 2. You reject my characterization of the theory? 3. You reject my application of the theory to the example of seeing UFOs? For the reason you gave? Is there more? 4. What research have you done to support your knowledge and claims? 5. Have you read “Hallucinations and Strong Priors” in Trends in Cognitive Science [1]? I referenced it in nearby comment as well. Penultimate point: correctly or incorrectly, I am using facts and reasoning in my above comment; I don’t see how this qualifies as “hallucination” in terms of an AI or human phenomenon. Final point: there is considerable nuance and skill required to criticize effectively. In asking questions 1 through 3, I’m offering an example of a better way. [1] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tics.2018.12.001 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tics.2018.12.001
- Loquebantur 3y ago
  Curious discussion is engaging on the topic at hand, not on completely unrelated nonsense, that you are no expert on anyway (as you professed yourself). As already stated, the whistleblower does not fall at all in the context you are discussing here, as he reports having been briefed on research programs that study non-human technology. Now, in the case of those sightings by military pilots, you have multiple sensor systems and multiple pilots involved simultaneously. Clearly impossible to be explained by your idea here. But even in cases of single eye-witnesses, their sightings are often over extended periods of time, entirely incompatible with your paper.
  - xpe 3y ago
    > Curious discussion is engaging on the topic at hand, not on completely unrelated nonsense… 1. No. This interpretation of one HN Guideline is not accurate. Such a view would justify being non-charitable, which is incompatible with the guidelines more broadly. Curious and charitable conversation should not stop because you think my comment is off-topic. 2. Regarding topicality; as I explained at length in another comment, as conversations evolve in a tree of comments, there may be considerable distance (in terms of a topic vector space) from the root. This is a normal and useful. I’m certainly open and appreciative of someone adding to the conversation. You made a connection from my points to what you see is the central point. Your connection was ‘negative’ in the sense that you suggested my points about perceptions and priors does not apply to the original post. This sense of negative is not a problem, even though I disagree with some of your logic. But the way you did it — quite harshly — was unnecessary. 3. Each time you say “utter nonsense” or “bogus” (and the like) it comes across as insulting. Are you aware of this? There are clearer phrases and terms to use that are not insulting. Depending on what you are trying to say, you might try: - you could say you disagree (in the sense of a value judgment or a subjective matter) - you could say that I’m making a logical or rational error - you could say that something is not true, factually - you could say that particular claim of mine is inconsistent with another claim - you could say that I am not providing evidence or support for a claim Onto a different point. You wrote: > not on completely unrelated nonsense, that you are no expert on anyway (as you professed yourself). 4. Stating that I am not an expert in a particular cognitive science theory does not inherently disqualify the logic of my argument. It merely suggests an openness to learning if there are mistakes. Such an openness is indicative of humility and a tendency to not overreach. As you can see in my other comments, I have recognized and agreed with some of your points. But these points have not contradicted or disproved what I wrote.

You are hallucinating complete nonsense here. Just think for a second, if such a thing was possible, why would it be restricted to "UFOs"? Obviously, such an illness would be well known.

George83728 3y ago

> if such a thing was possible, why would it be restricted to "UFOs"? Who said it is? Tons of people report seeing all manner of nonsense.

Loquebantur 3y ago
The prevalence of mental illnesses leading to visual hallucination is very low actually. The idea of whole departments in the US government being staffed with them is absurdist nonsense.
- gitfan86 3y ago
  "normally functioning" brains see things that are not actually there ALL the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion Most UFO reports fall into the Optical Illusion category rather than extreme schizophrenia.
  - Loquebantur 3y ago
    Optical illusions are not at all the same thing as visual hallucinations. Your allegation about UFO reports is accordingly simply incorrect.
    - gitfan86 3y ago
      Right, so your point about people not having hallucinations frequently is valid. But most people do see optical illusions. So it seems strange that you have jumped to the conclusion that these must be real UFOs since most people do not hallucinate.
      - Loquebantur 3y ago
        I did not jump to that conclusion, you are putting words in my mouth. The whistleblower reports of the existence of a research program that he was briefed about. He testifies this program was stuying non-human technology, among that functioning craft, aka "flying saucers". The determination of it being non-human in orgin was due to extensive material analysis, evident morphology and working characteistics of those devices.
        gitfan86 3y ago
        "Someone claims that someone else told him material exists that is from aliens."
        xpe 3y ago
        > "Someone claims that someone else told him material exists that is from aliens." I think I take your point: he doesn't have firsthand experience seeing the evidence. That said, the quote "Someone claims that someone else told him material exists that is from aliens." doesn't by itself convey the significance of these other people being high ranking intelligence officials. A trained intelligence professional has much more analytical skill and credibility than a person randomly sampled from the U.S. population. > The Debrief reported that Grusch’s knowledge of non-human materials and vehicles was based on “extensive interviews with high-level intelligence officials”. He said he had reported the existence of a UFO material “recovery program” to Congress. > “Grusch said that the craft recovery operations are ongoing at various levels of activity and that he knows the specific individuals, current and former, who are involved,” the Debrief reported. > In the Debrief article, Grusch does not say he has personally seen alien vehicles, nor does he say where they may be being stored. He asked the Debrief to withhold details of retaliation by government officials due to an ongoing investigation.
  - stef25 3y ago
    > Most UFO reports fall into the Optical Illusion category Indeed. Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendlesham_Forest_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendlesham_Forest_incident you can listen to the audio recording of some soldiers investigating what happened at the site of a proposed UFO landing, where they observe weird lights and scorch marks on trees. There's another page some guy set up where he posts photos he took himself at the site and even used screenshots from a TV interview of one of the witnesses of the event to clearly show that those lights were easily explain by surrounding structures (light house etc) and the marks on trees were probably left by lumberjacks. I'm baffled how a bunch of trained soldiers investigating over several days can just "conclude" that it was all very mysterious stuff going on and that, despite it being clearly debunked, this event is still seen as THE UFO event in the UK. Then again I have no idea how these latest videos of flying objects can be explained. To a lay person like myself it just seems completely crazy. How can a pilot claiming to see things fly at supersonic speeds doing impossible maneuvers be explained by a problem with the lens and / or "it's just a weather balloon". The "explanations" of it being ufos seem completely believable to me.
- dsfsder3423 3y ago
  Really low chances that the cameras and other 70 sensor arrays located across an entire fleet of the US Navy are hallucinating simultaneously that they seeing, detecting an UAP. Or 20 UAPs zooming around, in and out from water, up and down from low Earth orbit in seconds.
  - gitfan86 3y ago
    You have the math backwards. It would be like saying that someone who guesses your 4 letter pin code is a mind reader because the likelihood of that is low. You are not factoring in how many times he has tried to guess other people's pins. Or if some pins are more common than others. Similarly here you are not factoring in how often an entire group of sensors has the same big and repots incorrect data at the same time in the same way. You are Cherry picking the one time the data looked like it might be a UFO. This is also a form of confirmation bias.
- jjk166 3y ago
  It's less of a hallucination and more like a mirage - there's some real stimulus but the mind grossly misinterprets it. Most people don't see mirages regularly, but anyone could see a mirage under the right circumstances.
- George83728 3y ago
  Maybe so, but presuming such a visual hallucination phenomena exists, who said it's limited to aliens? xpe didn't say it only manifests as UFO sightings. Besides UFOs, you've got tons of people claiming to see big foot, ghosts, monster fish, angels, ball lightning, etc...
- stef25 3y ago
  > The idea of whole departments in the US government being staffed with them is absurdist nonsense. Someone who works in astrophysics for a govt entity in the US told me they have such massive budgets that it's not uncommon to throw some of it to some weird department just as a favor or to keep up the public's interest in "space stuff". Another person (working at ESA) confirmed it, they both rolled their eyes and claimed it was all BS. NOT saying this is definitive truth.

xpe 3y ago

First, your tone comes across as unnecessarily uncivil. Your comments could be rephrased to better promote curious discussion. Second, I will respond in terms of the charitable substance of your comment. I think there is some useful back-and-forth to be had. Please be specific: part is “complete nonsense” to you; which of the following applies? 1. You reject the predictive processing theory? Why? 2. You reject my characterization of the theory? 3. You reject my application of the theory to the example of seeing UFOs? For the reason you gave? Is there more? 4. What research have you done to support your knowledge and claims? 5. Have you read “Hallucinations and Strong Priors” in Trends in Cognitive Science [1]? I referenced it in nearby comment as well. Penultimate point: correctly or incorrectly, I am using facts and reasoning in my above comment; I don’t see how this qualifies as “hallucination” in terms of an AI or human phenomenon. Final point: there is considerable nuance and skill required to criticize effectively. In asking questions 1 through 3, I’m offering an example of a better way. [1] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tics.2018.12.001 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tics.2018.12.001

Loquebantur 3y ago
Curious discussion is engaging on the topic at hand, not on completely unrelated nonsense, that you are no expert on anyway (as you professed yourself). As already stated, the whistleblower does not fall at all in the context you are discussing here, as he reports having been briefed on research programs that study non-human technology. Now, in the case of those sightings by military pilots, you have multiple sensor systems and multiple pilots involved simultaneously. Clearly impossible to be explained by your idea here. But even in cases of single eye-witnesses, their sightings are often over extended periods of time, entirely incompatible with your paper.
- xpe 3y ago
  > Curious discussion is engaging on the topic at hand, not on completely unrelated nonsense… 1. No. This interpretation of one HN Guideline is not accurate. Such a view would justify being non-charitable, which is incompatible with the guidelines more broadly. Curious and charitable conversation should not stop because you think my comment is off-topic. 2. Regarding topicality; as I explained at length in another comment, as conversations evolve in a tree of comments, there may be considerable distance (in terms of a topic vector space) from the root. This is a normal and useful. I’m certainly open and appreciative of someone adding to the conversation. You made a connection from my points to what you see is the central point. Your connection was ‘negative’ in the sense that you suggested my points about perceptions and priors does not apply to the original post. This sense of negative is not a problem, even though I disagree with some of your logic. But the way you did it — quite harshly — was unnecessary. 3. Each time you say “utter nonsense” or “bogus” (and the like) it comes across as insulting. Are you aware of this? There are clearer phrases and terms to use that are not insulting. Depending on what you are trying to say, you might try: - you could say you disagree (in the sense of a value judgment or a subjective matter) - you could say that I’m making a logical or rational error - you could say that something is not true, factually - you could say that particular claim of mine is inconsistent with another claim - you could say that I am not providing evidence or support for a claim Onto a different point. You wrote: > not on completely unrelated nonsense, that you are no expert on anyway (as you professed yourself). 4. Stating that I am not an expert in a particular cognitive science theory does not inherently disqualify the logic of my argument. It merely suggests an openness to learning if there are mistakes. Such an openness is indicative of humility and a tendency to not overreach. As you can see in my other comments, I have recognized and agreed with some of your points. But these points have not contradicted or disproved what I wrote.