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School shootings are not like plane crashes, they are like plane hijackings by suicidal terrorists. (Because that's what they are.) There are now kids who have

School shootings are not like plane crashes, they are like plane hijackings by suicidal terrorists. (Because that's what they are.) There are now kids who have loved through two school shootings. You're downplaying this significantly. Find a way to keep guns out of the hands of domestic terrorists and I'll listen to your concerns about phones but not before.

balderdash 3y ago
This is comically irrational
2devnull 3y ago
The parent did the math for you and you ignore it and trot out an anecdote of no relevance (someone that experienced 2 shootings). Bizarre.
- igetspam 3y ago
  Is this the "math" you're referring to? > I have a friend who is a high school principal and as the article describes, far more young people are harmed (up to and including suicide) by phones than guns. The sexting, constant and relentless bullying, distraction, overall device addiction, etc does far more damage to far more kids than guns (as wild as that might seem). Or perhaps it's the "thousands of adults" seeing Dave Chappelle? The parent had no "math," only talking points. But here's some actual data: 46 school shootings in 2022 27 school shootings in 2023, as of May 5 There are approximately 93000 pre college public schools in this country. All but one school shooting has been at public schools. That means the likely hood of going to a school where a shooting will happen (using the 2022 numbers) is ~0.04%. Ask any parent if a "one in a 2500 chance" that their kid will be at school during a shooting makes them feel good or bad. Is that good enough math for you? Let the kids keep their phones. In the not-actually-unlikely-event that there is a school shooting, more phones is better. Make schools, which are mandatory (not like airplane rides) safer and we can talk about phones. Focusing on less important issues, backed by anecdata (my school principal friend says... blah blah blah) is a waste of energy that could be used elsewhere.
  - prepend 3y ago
    > Ask any parent if a "one in a thousand chance" that their kid will be at school during a shooting makes them feel good or bad. Of course school shootings make parents feel bad. Having phones doesn’t improve the 1:1000 odds of my child being in a school shooting. Ask parents if they’d like to have improved mental health and school performance. It’s the choice between phones not improving outcomes in a 1:1000 chance vs phones substantially harming kids at a much higher probability. Phones are a poor intervention to ameliorate school shootings.
    - igetspam 3y ago
      I corrected my math. It's 93000 schools. One in 2500 kids will be at school during a shooting. That's 2500-${dead} that will likely suffer from PTSD. Know what people with PTSD often do? Hint: rhymes with suicide. Phones in schools help in active shooter situations. They help responders know what's going on. They let children call their parents. The article has links to unrelated studies and draws correlation without evidence to the author's conclusions. We have actual evidence that children have called their parents and that phones in hands have helped officers understand how things are playing out. This article and the personal accounts both here and there are unconvincing. Sure, social media is trash but I'm happy to deal with that on a personal level with my kid. There's nothing I can do to improve their safety at school though and that is something that school should be responsible for.
      - GoblinSlayer 3y ago
        Won't parents just amplify panic?
      - prepend 3y ago
        And how does that weigh toward the benefits of not having phones in schools? Or compared to having non-smart phones that can only call parents or 911? I’m glad you’re privileged enough to “deal” with social media with your kids. Monitoring whether I’m dealing with it is really hard, so I’m glad you’ve figured it out. But there are many other parents and kids without your privilege that are suffering from phones. Allowing phones to add some unquantified benefit during a school shooting rate event they will not impact 999:1000 kids seems like a selfish decision to justify how I want to raise my kids not thinking about everyone else. Kids with phones get the same PTSD during a school shooting as kids without phones. PTSD accounts for .6% of suicides in men and 3.5% of suicides in women [0]. I can’t find exactly comparable rates for social media, but studies show it has a 3x multiplier in depression for kids [1] and the increase in suicide that brings. No need to rhyme. So if our goal is reducing suicide, I think allowing phones to mitigate some small, unknown fraction of PTSD from a 1:1000 chance school shooting is not wise. I think adults are also misusing phones and quite addicted and suffering from harm and we project our decisions onto kids. But I think we should work to protect kids from our mistakes. We shouldnt try to justify kids smirking because we smoke. But it seems like we’re smoking away and saying that it’s ok that kids smoke too because of the spurious benefits of smoking. Like the old ad that said smoking was beneficial to moms because the low fetus weight at birth made vaginal birth easier. (This ended up being a fake photoshop [2]) But bringing up how kids can livestream their school shooting to reduce PTSD seems like such a similarly farcical reach when the complaint is that kids are misusing phones and suffering increased rates of depression, self-harm, and suicide. [0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165032720328536 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016503272... [1] https://healthcare.utah.edu/healthfeed/2023/01/impact-of-social-media-teens-mental-health https://healthcare.utah.edu/healthfeed/2023/01/impact-of-soc... [2] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/winston-cigarettes-smoking-for-two/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/winston-cigarettes-smoking...
- prepend 3y ago
  I explain it due to attention deficit due to constant phone use. I find that when I have high screen time I struggle to maintain attention and develop cogent, supported arguments. When I’m spending infinite time watching 10 second video clips over and over until I sleep, I both 1) am greatly incentivized to not want to change this and 2) would rather quip out an immediate thought than respond with evidence. Or, more scarily, schools suck too hard now that someone things an individual getting struck by lightening twice is more important than the data and statistical evidence showing the danger of lightening strikes.

balderdash 3y ago

This is comically irrational

2devnull 3y ago

The parent did the math for you and you ignore it and trot out an anecdote of no relevance (someone that experienced 2 shootings). Bizarre.

igetspam 3y ago
Is this the "math" you're referring to? > I have a friend who is a high school principal and as the article describes, far more young people are harmed (up to and including suicide) by phones than guns. The sexting, constant and relentless bullying, distraction, overall device addiction, etc does far more damage to far more kids than guns (as wild as that might seem). Or perhaps it's the "thousands of adults" seeing Dave Chappelle? The parent had no "math," only talking points. But here's some actual data: 46 school shootings in 2022 27 school shootings in 2023, as of May 5 There are approximately 93000 pre college public schools in this country. All but one school shooting has been at public schools. That means the likely hood of going to a school where a shooting will happen (using the 2022 numbers) is ~0.04%. Ask any parent if a "one in a 2500 chance" that their kid will be at school during a shooting makes them feel good or bad. Is that good enough math for you? Let the kids keep their phones. In the not-actually-unlikely-event that there is a school shooting, more phones is better. Make schools, which are mandatory (not like airplane rides) safer and we can talk about phones. Focusing on less important issues, backed by anecdata (my school principal friend says... blah blah blah) is a waste of energy that could be used elsewhere.
- prepend 3y ago
  > Ask any parent if a "one in a thousand chance" that their kid will be at school during a shooting makes them feel good or bad. Of course school shootings make parents feel bad. Having phones doesn’t improve the 1:1000 odds of my child being in a school shooting. Ask parents if they’d like to have improved mental health and school performance. It’s the choice between phones not improving outcomes in a 1:1000 chance vs phones substantially harming kids at a much higher probability. Phones are a poor intervention to ameliorate school shootings.
  - igetspam 3y ago
    I corrected my math. It's 93000 schools. One in 2500 kids will be at school during a shooting. That's 2500-${dead} that will likely suffer from PTSD. Know what people with PTSD often do? Hint: rhymes with suicide. Phones in schools help in active shooter situations. They help responders know what's going on. They let children call their parents. The article has links to unrelated studies and draws correlation without evidence to the author's conclusions. We have actual evidence that children have called their parents and that phones in hands have helped officers understand how things are playing out. This article and the personal accounts both here and there are unconvincing. Sure, social media is trash but I'm happy to deal with that on a personal level with my kid. There's nothing I can do to improve their safety at school though and that is something that school should be responsible for.
    - GoblinSlayer 3y ago
      Won't parents just amplify panic?
    - prepend 3y ago
      And how does that weigh toward the benefits of not having phones in schools? Or compared to having non-smart phones that can only call parents or 911? I’m glad you’re privileged enough to “deal” with social media with your kids. Monitoring whether I’m dealing with it is really hard, so I’m glad you’ve figured it out. But there are many other parents and kids without your privilege that are suffering from phones. Allowing phones to add some unquantified benefit during a school shooting rate event they will not impact 999:1000 kids seems like a selfish decision to justify how I want to raise my kids not thinking about everyone else. Kids with phones get the same PTSD during a school shooting as kids without phones. PTSD accounts for .6% of suicides in men and 3.5% of suicides in women [0]. I can’t find exactly comparable rates for social media, but studies show it has a 3x multiplier in depression for kids [1] and the increase in suicide that brings. No need to rhyme. So if our goal is reducing suicide, I think allowing phones to mitigate some small, unknown fraction of PTSD from a 1:1000 chance school shooting is not wise. I think adults are also misusing phones and quite addicted and suffering from harm and we project our decisions onto kids. But I think we should work to protect kids from our mistakes. We shouldnt try to justify kids smirking because we smoke. But it seems like we’re smoking away and saying that it’s ok that kids smoke too because of the spurious benefits of smoking. Like the old ad that said smoking was beneficial to moms because the low fetus weight at birth made vaginal birth easier. (This ended up being a fake photoshop [2]) But bringing up how kids can livestream their school shooting to reduce PTSD seems like such a similarly farcical reach when the complaint is that kids are misusing phones and suffering increased rates of depression, self-harm, and suicide. [0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165032720328536 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016503272... [1] https://healthcare.utah.edu/healthfeed/2023/01/impact-of-social-media-teens-mental-health https://healthcare.utah.edu/healthfeed/2023/01/impact-of-soc... [2] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/winston-cigarettes-smoking-for-two/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/winston-cigarettes-smoking...
prepend 3y ago
I explain it due to attention deficit due to constant phone use. I find that when I have high screen time I struggle to maintain attention and develop cogent, supported arguments. When I’m spending infinite time watching 10 second video clips over and over until I sleep, I both 1) am greatly incentivized to not want to change this and 2) would rather quip out an immediate thought than respond with evidence. Or, more scarily, schools suck too hard now that someone things an individual getting struck by lightening twice is more important than the data and statistical evidence showing the danger of lightening strikes.