6 ms·

I say this from an angle of religious tolerance but some people actually “believe in angels” etc, people will believe whatever they want

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
gitfan86 3y ago
Angels, ghosts, UFOs, miracles all have the same characteristics. A person who seems very reasonable says they are sure that saw the thing, and they provide SOME circumstantial or grainy photographic evidence, but no one actually got a full resolution picture of the angel or ghost or UFO. I doubt these people are lying. They actually saw something. Miracles are the easiest example to explain. Someone couldn't walk and then a saint said a prayer for them and they could walk again. It is pretty easy guess that it was a placebo effect or coincidence that the medical issue got better at the same time. We have never seen someone with a X-Ray of a severed spine regain full walking ability after a prayer from a saint. UFO's may exist, but it seems more likely that a combination of reflections, radar issues, tiredness/stress, "wanting to believe" caused them to see "something"
- xpe 3y ago
  It seems likely to me that “seeing things” is consistent with the predictive processing model from cognitive neuroscience. To summarize: the retina error-corrects a simulation provided from the cortex. Let’s say some visual details are fuzzy. With a strong enough Bayesian prior (e.g. belief in UFOs), the human perceptual apparatus could subjectively see things that look like UFOs. Mind bending, but this seems to me a credible and popular theory of brain functioning. I’m no expert and new to the theory. Please correct me if I’m butchering it. P.S. Like anyone, I often detect motion in my peripheral vision without much detail. Maybe once a year (or less), I see weird things that seem implausible, but only for brief instant. When I look, there is nothing unusual. Yes, bring on the “what are you smoking?” comments… but I assure you the answer is “nothing”.
  - gitfan86 3y ago
    Yes, that seems right. Humans fill in the gaps. AI is similar, where it "hallucinates", but are humans that much different?
  - friendzis 3y ago
    While this is not a well studied phenomenon, as in to the extent of having well formed theory, we do know that eyes constantly perform micromovements. One of the prevailing hypotheses states that due to low inherent resolution of the retina these micromovements are used to create sort of sub-pixel resolution. Hence, visual cortex inherently works in predictive/generative mode with constant feedback correction. This hypothesis is sometimes used to explain phenomena like pareidolia and might as well be used to explain perception of UFOs.
  - Loquebantur 3y ago
    You are hallucinating complete nonsense here. Just think for a second, if such a thing was possible, why would it be restricted to "UFOs"? Obviously, such an illness would be well known.
    - George83728 3y ago
      > if such a thing was possible, why would it be restricted to "UFOs"? Who said it is? Tons of people report seeing all manner of nonsense.
      - Loquebantur 3y ago
        The prevalence of mental illnesses leading to visual hallucination is very low actually. The idea of whole departments in the US government being staffed with them is absurdist nonsense.
        gitfan86 3y ago
        "normally functioning" brains see things that are not actually there ALL the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion Most UFO reports fall into the Optical Illusion category rather than extreme schizophrenia.
- otikik 3y ago
  There’s also perverse monetary incentives. “We need to increase tourism on the Town. Cowille business is booming since they had that Virgin Mary apparition. Anne-Marie, could that shape that you saw while tending the sheep be the Spirit of Saint Peter?”
- mnky9800n 3y ago
  UFO sightings are much less interesting then abductions. Sightings require almost no effort and ultimately can be explained away. But people who claim to be abducted basically are giving up the assumption they will ever be taken seriously again. So why tell others? Are there some subset of abductees who were actually taken? We certainly do the same to other animals so there's no reason why it wouldn't be done to us.
  - goolz 3y ago
    I mean, there sure are a lot of mentally unstable people who actively choose to detach from reality. To some, living in a fantasy land is as simple as ignoring the truth around you.
  - GTP 3y ago
    > So why tell others? Some people just like having the attention of other people, so it could still be an invented story just to have a great story to tell to the few that believe it.
    - Loquebantur 3y ago
      While being ridculed by all the rest? You have a weird idea of "wanted attention".
      - DonHopkins 3y ago
        Ask George Santos. Maybe he so desperately wants his $500,000 bail guarantors to remain anonymous because they're aliens! https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/06/nyregion/george-santos-bail.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/06/nyregion/george-santos-ba...
- cassepipe 3y ago
  Tangential, but we tend to bring up the placebo effect pretty quickly in medical discussions about what works and doesn't but actually a lot of what people say is the result of placebo is just not even placebo but "natural" resorption, that is your body doing the work. Placebo is measurable, it's whether taking a "fake" cure is better than "natural" resorption. For some affections, the effect is surprisingly important for others quite negligible.
andyjohnson0 3y ago
> people will believe whatever they want Yes. I was discussing something related to this with one of my young-adult children and I said something along the lines of "Some people don't actually like abstract or self-reflective thought. They prefer to just believe what they want to, or what's comforting to them, and not to think about it." I believe it hadn't really occurred to them so starkly before, and I felt kind of bad for that.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

gitfan86 3y ago

Angels, ghosts, UFOs, miracles all have the same characteristics. A person who seems very reasonable says they are sure that saw the thing, and they provide SOME circumstantial or grainy photographic evidence, but no one actually got a full resolution picture of the angel or ghost or UFO. I doubt these people are lying. They actually saw something. Miracles are the easiest example to explain. Someone couldn't walk and then a saint said a prayer for them and they could walk again. It is pretty easy guess that it was a placebo effect or coincidence that the medical issue got better at the same time. We have never seen someone with a X-Ray of a severed spine regain full walking ability after a prayer from a saint. UFO's may exist, but it seems more likely that a combination of reflections, radar issues, tiredness/stress, "wanting to believe" caused them to see "something"

xpe 3y ago
It seems likely to me that “seeing things” is consistent with the predictive processing model from cognitive neuroscience. To summarize: the retina error-corrects a simulation provided from the cortex. Let’s say some visual details are fuzzy. With a strong enough Bayesian prior (e.g. belief in UFOs), the human perceptual apparatus could subjectively see things that look like UFOs. Mind bending, but this seems to me a credible and popular theory of brain functioning. I’m no expert and new to the theory. Please correct me if I’m butchering it. P.S. Like anyone, I often detect motion in my peripheral vision without much detail. Maybe once a year (or less), I see weird things that seem implausible, but only for brief instant. When I look, there is nothing unusual. Yes, bring on the “what are you smoking?” comments… but I assure you the answer is “nothing”.
- gitfan86 3y ago
  Yes, that seems right. Humans fill in the gaps. AI is similar, where it "hallucinates", but are humans that much different?
- friendzis 3y ago
  While this is not a well studied phenomenon, as in to the extent of having well formed theory, we do know that eyes constantly perform micromovements. One of the prevailing hypotheses states that due to low inherent resolution of the retina these micromovements are used to create sort of sub-pixel resolution. Hence, visual cortex inherently works in predictive/generative mode with constant feedback correction. This hypothesis is sometimes used to explain phenomena like pareidolia and might as well be used to explain perception of UFOs.
- Loquebantur 3y ago
  You are hallucinating complete nonsense here. Just think for a second, if such a thing was possible, why would it be restricted to "UFOs"? Obviously, such an illness would be well known.
  - George83728 3y ago
    > if such a thing was possible, why would it be restricted to "UFOs"? Who said it is? Tons of people report seeing all manner of nonsense.
    - Loquebantur 3y ago
      The prevalence of mental illnesses leading to visual hallucination is very low actually. The idea of whole departments in the US government being staffed with them is absurdist nonsense.
      - gitfan86 3y ago
        "normally functioning" brains see things that are not actually there ALL the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion Most UFO reports fall into the Optical Illusion category rather than extreme schizophrenia.
otikik 3y ago
There’s also perverse monetary incentives. “We need to increase tourism on the Town. Cowille business is booming since they had that Virgin Mary apparition. Anne-Marie, could that shape that you saw while tending the sheep be the Spirit of Saint Peter?”
mnky9800n 3y ago
UFO sightings are much less interesting then abductions. Sightings require almost no effort and ultimately can be explained away. But people who claim to be abducted basically are giving up the assumption they will ever be taken seriously again. So why tell others? Are there some subset of abductees who were actually taken? We certainly do the same to other animals so there's no reason why it wouldn't be done to us.
- goolz 3y ago
  I mean, there sure are a lot of mentally unstable people who actively choose to detach from reality. To some, living in a fantasy land is as simple as ignoring the truth around you.
- GTP 3y ago
  > So why tell others? Some people just like having the attention of other people, so it could still be an invented story just to have a great story to tell to the few that believe it.
  - Loquebantur 3y ago
    While being ridculed by all the rest? You have a weird idea of "wanted attention".
    - DonHopkins 3y ago
      Ask George Santos. Maybe he so desperately wants his $500,000 bail guarantors to remain anonymous because they're aliens! https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/06/nyregion/george-santos-bail.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/06/nyregion/george-santos-ba...
cassepipe 3y ago
Tangential, but we tend to bring up the placebo effect pretty quickly in medical discussions about what works and doesn't but actually a lot of what people say is the result of placebo is just not even placebo but "natural" resorption, that is your body doing the work. Placebo is measurable, it's whether taking a "fake" cure is better than "natural" resorption. For some affections, the effect is surprisingly important for others quite negligible.

andyjohnson0 3y ago

> people will believe whatever they want Yes. I was discussing something related to this with one of my young-adult children and I said something along the lines of "Some people don't actually like abstract or self-reflective thought. They prefer to just believe what they want to, or what's comforting to them, and not to think about it." I believe it hadn't really occurred to them so starkly before, and I felt kind of bad for that.