5 ms·

I'd recommend people skim the actual report, it's written for a lay audience. https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/News-Assets/PDFs/2021/Sentience-in-Cephalopod-Molluscs

I'd recommend people skim the actual report, it's written for a lay audience. https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/News-Assets/PDFs/2021/Sentience-in-Cephalopod-Molluscs-and-Decapod-Crustaceans-Final-Report-November-2021.pdf https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/News-Assets/PDFs/2021/Sentience-i... I was a bit dismissive of the idea that they can define sentience in a useful way, but their framework is right there on page 7 and it makes a lot of sense: > 1) possession of nociceptors; > 2) possession of integrative brain regions; > 3) connections between nociceptors and integrative brain regions; > 4) responses affected by potential local anaesthetics or analgesics; > 5) motivational trade-offs that show a balancing of threat against opportunity for reward; > 6) flexible self-protective behaviours in response to injury and threat; > 7) associative learning that goes beyond habituation and sensitisation; > 8) behaviour that shows the animal values local anaesthetics or analgesics when injured. I'd be very curious what they'd find if they tested fish and even insects. Surely certain predatory fishes would exhibit thought provoking behaviour.

hanniabu 3y ago
Pretty sure a lot of mammals pass that test
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  The law covers all vertebrates, I believe these three are noteworthy for being the only invertebrates covered.
- uh_uh 3y ago
  I'd be surprised if there is any mammal that doesn't.
throwanem 3y ago
Social wasps are known to meet at least five and maybe six of those criteria; I don't know offhand of research specifically investigating the question of nociception, but their behavior certainly offers no suggestion they lack that capacity. Their behavior with regard to analgesia isn't something I know firsthand to have yet been studied, but as an amateur and an autodidact in the field I wouldn't be surprised at all if such work exists and I simply haven't run across it.
- whamlastxmas 3y ago
  Wasps could be sentient and I’d still murder them endlessly
  - throwanem 3y ago
    Somebody so often feels the need to say something like this and I've never understood why. What do you feel it adds to this conversation, or any? This world isn't ugly enough for you already, that you feel it will be improved by the thought of even more unthinking slaughter? Is there just not enough human cruelty in an ordinary day for your taste? I don't know why I bother asking these questions. The next meaningful attempt I see to answer them will be the first, but who knows, maybe you'll pleasantly surprise me. I won't lie, I could use that a lot these days.
    - dTal 3y ago
      It's a defense mechanism, to deal with cognitive dissonance. People hate wasps, they're comfortable being allowed to hate wasps by society, they don't want to be told they suddenly need to have compassion for an outgroup, and so they double down. For the same reason, a common response of non-vegans to meeting a vegan is a sudden compulsion to list all the "reasons" why that would be impossible for them - "Oh I could never be vegan because I like $FOOD too much / I require $NUTRIENT / I am biologically incompatible for $REASON." These excuses invariably collapse under the mildest scrutiny, but applying that scrutiny causes an emotional response and therein reveals the real reason - the mere presence of a vegan causes cognitive dissonance. To avoid feeling like a bad person, they must double down.
      - 93po 3y ago
        I have compassion for wasps as living beings. I also have compassion for myself and not wanting to be painfully stung and that I have a right to defend myself from wasp stings. I am not going to try to eradicate any wasps that don't pose any threat to me both because I recognize they're important to ecosystems but also being they're living beings. As another example, I do not hurt honey bees despite the (much lower) risk they pose to me. If I have a hive attached to my house that I am likely to disturb and cause me injury as a result, I will pay to have them relocated, but not kill them. The difference with wasps is that their threshold for attacking me is basically me standing still and doing nothing. I have a right to defend myself from wasps and the virtual guarantee they will at one point attack me if I left them live right outside my front door. I will not pay to relocate wasp nests because killing them is an act of self defense, whereas with honey bees it's an act of convenience that I don't want them around.
m463 3y ago
I wonder if the test was "crafted" to carefully avoid classing some species as sentient. For example, what if chickens suddenly went off the food market? (many bird species exhibit really intelligent behavior - would they fit the bill?)
- viraptor 3y ago
  Chickens (and many other animals) are already classified as sentient. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/12/animals-to-be-formally-recognised-as-sentient-beings-in-uk-law https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/12/animals-to-be-... It doesn't stop us eating them. Just tries to stop being pointlessly cruel while they're alive.
  - psychphysic 3y ago
    I've never really understood the significance. Cows are sentient, does that mean the guy who artificially inseminates them is raping them?
    - baliex 3y ago
      Not an expert but, yes. The purpose of introducing this kind of law is to continue to expand the legal recognition of what we now consider to be ethical, based on our continually expanding understanding of the world. The cows aren’t in a position to protest in some animal rights movement, so some interested (and compassionate) humans are working on their behalf.
    - afiori 3y ago
      It is legal to toss a rock, a small bush, a mosquito, or a earthworm into a fire in most places. In those same places it is likely illegal to toss a live cat into a fire. In this context sentience is about "should I care about how this clump of atom _feels_" and/or "it is possible to be unduly cruel to this clump of atoms". In farming it mostly means that you cannot cause unnecessary suffering too much outside of the Overton window; not about recognizing bodily autonomy to cattle.
    - deleted 3y ago
jdnier 3y ago
From the forward: > This is an excellent report which argues that the cephalopod molluscs and decapod crustaceans should be included in the UK animal welfare law in an explicit way, based on a detailed and important scientific and philosophical framework and evaluation, coupled with extremely helpful suggestions for improving best practice and welfare, and for regulating existing practices that currently raise widespread concerns about the welfare of these animals.
dieselgate 3y ago
If one were to look for papers I would assume drosophila and zebra fish would be likely target organisms Edit: personally feel researcher could observe sentience by the standards defined in above post

hanniabu 3y ago

Pretty sure a lot of mammals pass that test

boomboomsubban 3y ago
The law covers all vertebrates, I believe these three are noteworthy for being the only invertebrates covered.
uh_uh 3y ago
I'd be surprised if there is any mammal that doesn't.

throwanem 3y ago

Social wasps are known to meet at least five and maybe six of those criteria; I don't know offhand of research specifically investigating the question of nociception, but their behavior certainly offers no suggestion they lack that capacity. Their behavior with regard to analgesia isn't something I know firsthand to have yet been studied, but as an amateur and an autodidact in the field I wouldn't be surprised at all if such work exists and I simply haven't run across it.

whamlastxmas 3y ago
Wasps could be sentient and I’d still murder them endlessly
- throwanem 3y ago
  Somebody so often feels the need to say something like this and I've never understood why. What do you feel it adds to this conversation, or any? This world isn't ugly enough for you already, that you feel it will be improved by the thought of even more unthinking slaughter? Is there just not enough human cruelty in an ordinary day for your taste? I don't know why I bother asking these questions. The next meaningful attempt I see to answer them will be the first, but who knows, maybe you'll pleasantly surprise me. I won't lie, I could use that a lot these days.
  - dTal 3y ago
    It's a defense mechanism, to deal with cognitive dissonance. People hate wasps, they're comfortable being allowed to hate wasps by society, they don't want to be told they suddenly need to have compassion for an outgroup, and so they double down. For the same reason, a common response of non-vegans to meeting a vegan is a sudden compulsion to list all the "reasons" why that would be impossible for them - "Oh I could never be vegan because I like $FOOD too much / I require $NUTRIENT / I am biologically incompatible for $REASON." These excuses invariably collapse under the mildest scrutiny, but applying that scrutiny causes an emotional response and therein reveals the real reason - the mere presence of a vegan causes cognitive dissonance. To avoid feeling like a bad person, they must double down.
    - 93po 3y ago
      I have compassion for wasps as living beings. I also have compassion for myself and not wanting to be painfully stung and that I have a right to defend myself from wasp stings. I am not going to try to eradicate any wasps that don't pose any threat to me both because I recognize they're important to ecosystems but also being they're living beings. As another example, I do not hurt honey bees despite the (much lower) risk they pose to me. If I have a hive attached to my house that I am likely to disturb and cause me injury as a result, I will pay to have them relocated, but not kill them. The difference with wasps is that their threshold for attacking me is basically me standing still and doing nothing. I have a right to defend myself from wasps and the virtual guarantee they will at one point attack me if I left them live right outside my front door. I will not pay to relocate wasp nests because killing them is an act of self defense, whereas with honey bees it's an act of convenience that I don't want them around.

m463 3y ago

I wonder if the test was "crafted" to carefully avoid classing some species as sentient. For example, what if chickens suddenly went off the food market? (many bird species exhibit really intelligent behavior - would they fit the bill?)

viraptor 3y ago
Chickens (and many other animals) are already classified as sentient. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/12/animals-to-be-formally-recognised-as-sentient-beings-in-uk-law https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/12/animals-to-be-... It doesn't stop us eating them. Just tries to stop being pointlessly cruel while they're alive.
- psychphysic 3y ago
  I've never really understood the significance. Cows are sentient, does that mean the guy who artificially inseminates them is raping them?
  - baliex 3y ago
    Not an expert but, yes. The purpose of introducing this kind of law is to continue to expand the legal recognition of what we now consider to be ethical, based on our continually expanding understanding of the world. The cows aren’t in a position to protest in some animal rights movement, so some interested (and compassionate) humans are working on their behalf.
  - afiori 3y ago
    It is legal to toss a rock, a small bush, a mosquito, or a earthworm into a fire in most places. In those same places it is likely illegal to toss a live cat into a fire. In this context sentience is about "should I care about how this clump of atom _feels_" and/or "it is possible to be unduly cruel to this clump of atoms". In farming it mostly means that you cannot cause unnecessary suffering too much outside of the Overton window; not about recognizing bodily autonomy to cattle.
  - deleted 3y ago

jdnier 3y ago

From the forward: > This is an excellent report which argues that the cephalopod molluscs and decapod crustaceans should be included in the UK animal welfare law in an explicit way, based on a detailed and important scientific and philosophical framework and evaluation, coupled with extremely helpful suggestions for improving best practice and welfare, and for regulating existing practices that currently raise widespread concerns about the welfare of these animals.

dieselgate 3y ago

If one were to look for papers I would assume drosophila and zebra fish would be likely target organisms Edit: personally feel researcher could observe sentience by the standards defined in above post