3 ms·

And not much motive to develop it. Slaves were abundant and the practice was widely accepted in paganism. This skewed the economics to favor making use of the

And not much motive to develop it. Slaves were abundant and the practice was widely accepted in paganism. This skewed the economics to favor making use of them.

bluGill 3y ago
Slaves were cheaper than the early steam engines. As such even if you built a steam engine (I think historians have documented primitive ones that did work - but they were small, very low power, and inefficient) it wasn't clear that the effort to develop it into something better is worth the cost.
- Alupis 3y ago
  Machines can work 24/7, don't get sick, don't get lazy, don't need training, don't need to be fed, etc. Even in a world where slave labor was cheaper, machines were obviously better. Fewer people could produce the same output no matter how you look at it.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Machines break all the time. Particularly when you are faced with the metals available back then. They are a lot more reliable today, but we have had ~200 years of industrial revolution to learn how to make reliable machines. We also have a lot more population, and that means a lot more people thinking about how to make machines more reliable. Modern machines are clearly better than slave labor today. However 2000 years ago a lot of things were different.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - charliea0 3y ago
    The machines need lots of fuel which either needs to be chopped from forests or dug out of coal mines. Both those tasks were labor-intensive and costly. Some water mills were cost effective though.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
  The acoup blog went into detail on this topic [0]. Central idea was that early steam power was so inefficient the only way it was worthwhile was for use in coal mines where the fuel was basically free. It took years of improvements to make the technology cost effective in other domains. [0] https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-industrial-revolution/ https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-indus...
Dalewyn 3y ago
>Slaves were abundant and the practice was widely accepted in paganism. Slavery in various forms was widely utilized across all of humanity until the last few centuries, and in some ways it still is utilized today. We just don't call it slavery anymore. "Paganism" has nothing to do with it.
- tomohawk 3y ago
  Christianity promoted this teaching: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" This was a radically different teaching from other world views at the time, paganism being the main one in question during Roman times. Paganism may or may not have specifically promoted slavery, but it did not offer any teaching that there might be a fundamental problem with it.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    Unless you're deliberately cherry picking, Christianity was the poster child of slavery both explicit and implicit. Of course, they are not any more wrong than all the others who utilized slavery. Framing slavery as rooted in paganism isn't accurate, and more importantly isn't helpful in having a worthwhile conversation. All it does is paint Christianity as some moral paragon, which it is not.
    - Veen 3y ago
      There's some truth to the argument that Christianity introduced novel concepts and ethical ideas that eventually led to the opposition to slavery, ideas that were not present in Graeco-Roman thinking, for example. The fact that those ideas took so long to come to fruition doesn't invalidate that line of argument.

And not much motive to develop it. Slaves were abundant and the practice was widely accepted in paganism. This skewed the economics to favor making use of them.

bluGill 3y ago

Slaves were cheaper than the early steam engines. As such even if you built a steam engine (I think historians have documented primitive ones that did work - but they were small, very low power, and inefficient) it wasn't clear that the effort to develop it into something better is worth the cost.

Alupis 3y ago
Machines can work 24/7, don't get sick, don't get lazy, don't need training, don't need to be fed, etc. Even in a world where slave labor was cheaper, machines were obviously better. Fewer people could produce the same output no matter how you look at it.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Machines break all the time. Particularly when you are faced with the metals available back then. They are a lot more reliable today, but we have had ~200 years of industrial revolution to learn how to make reliable machines. We also have a lot more population, and that means a lot more people thinking about how to make machines more reliable. Modern machines are clearly better than slave labor today. However 2000 years ago a lot of things were different.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- charliea0 3y ago
  The machines need lots of fuel which either needs to be chopped from forests or dug out of coal mines. Both those tasks were labor-intensive and costly. Some water mills were cost effective though.
0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
The acoup blog went into detail on this topic [0]. Central idea was that early steam power was so inefficient the only way it was worthwhile was for use in coal mines where the fuel was basically free. It took years of improvements to make the technology cost effective in other domains. [0] https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-industrial-revolution/ https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-indus...

Dalewyn 3y ago

>Slaves were abundant and the practice was widely accepted in paganism. Slavery in various forms was widely utilized across all of humanity until the last few centuries, and in some ways it still is utilized today. We just don't call it slavery anymore. "Paganism" has nothing to do with it.

tomohawk 3y ago
Christianity promoted this teaching: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" This was a radically different teaching from other world views at the time, paganism being the main one in question during Roman times. Paganism may or may not have specifically promoted slavery, but it did not offer any teaching that there might be a fundamental problem with it.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  Unless you're deliberately cherry picking, Christianity was the poster child of slavery both explicit and implicit. Of course, they are not any more wrong than all the others who utilized slavery. Framing slavery as rooted in paganism isn't accurate, and more importantly isn't helpful in having a worthwhile conversation. All it does is paint Christianity as some moral paragon, which it is not.
  - Veen 3y ago
    There's some truth to the argument that Christianity introduced novel concepts and ethical ideas that eventually led to the opposition to slavery, ideas that were not present in Graeco-Roman thinking, for example. The fact that those ideas took so long to come to fruition doesn't invalidate that line of argument.