6 ms·

I built myself something similar on top of SQLite and Combine. Now I’m confused, should I abandon it and go with the first hand solution? I would actually pref

by mrtksn 3y ago

I built myself something similar on top of SQLite and Combine. Now I’m confused, should I abandon it and go with the first hand solution? I would actually prefer that but this requires the new versions of the Apple platforms. Why wouldn’t Apple make these available downstream?

wilg 3y ago
> Why wouldn’t Apple make these available downstream? Because Apple cannot figure out that their deployment model is hamstringing adoption of their technologies.
- plagiarist 3y ago
  They actually can figure that out, though [0]. I hope this can solve some of it because their deployment model is the dumbest fucking thing. I'm glad they figured out how to backport async/await, it's just impossible to use in a serious library otherwise. [0] https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/main/proposals/0376-function-back-deployment.md https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/main/proposals...
  - _2z1p 3y ago
    Over 80% of iPhones are running the latest version. I’ll take that any day as a developer over the Android hellscape of versions that need to be tested for and supported. https://www.macrumors.com/2023/06/01/apple-shares-ios-16-adoption-statistics/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/06/01/apple-shares-ios-16-ado...
    - alwillis 3y ago
      > Over 80% of iPhones are running the latest version. If the past is any indicator, the number will be over 90% by the time iOS 17 ships this fall.
      - ecedeno 3y ago
        I doubt iOS 17 will be adopted faster than previous versions. For one, they are dropping support for multiple device generations this time.
        alwillis 3y ago
        > I doubt iOS 17 will be adopted faster than previous versions. For one, they are dropping support for multiple device generations this time. Each release gets adopted faster than the previous version; there’s no reason to expect anything different this year. Also, just about every new iOS release drops support for older iPhones; this isn’t new. No longer requiring developer accounts to install the iOS 17 beta will only increase the rate of adoption—many millions of users who aren’t developers will be running it before the official release in September, unlike years past.
        Dreami 3y ago
        They are actually of the same age, the iPhone 8 and X came out at the same time (yes it’s still confusing now)
    - wilg 3y ago
      Same, but its still a 1 year lag on relying on a new API. Probably 2 or 3 in practice if you support the old OSes for a bit. Could be zero lag.
    - carstenhag 3y ago
      Some input as an Android dev: the API level stuff is not nearly as much as a problem as it was some years ago. Nowadays you can easily require 23 or 25 (see https://apilevels.com/ https://apilevels.com/) - since 23, there were definitely some changes, but not terribly big ones that are really painful. I'm rather getting a headache with new form factors (window insets, foldables, tablets being revived). Also: Usually all google libs are backwards compatible to 21. The new ui system (Compose) just gets shipped with the app itself, increasing download/installation size. Apple does not do this afaik, they require a recent minimum OS version for compose ui.
      - myko 3y ago
        As an iOS developer SwiftUI not being a library has been a huge pain, there were major bugs in point releases of iOS 13/14. It has improved a lot but there's still major headaches version to version.
    - myko 3y ago
      > over the Android hellscape of versions that need to be tested for and supported. Isn't really an issue these days. Almost everything Google puts out is in the Jetpack libraries and backported many major versions.
- qwytw 3y ago
  Why? This way their new stuff get a year or two of free testing and time to mature before widespread adoption.
lockhouse 3y ago
Apple actively encourages everyone to adopt the latest version. If your device is from 2018 or newer it will support the latest OS, so back porting frameworks is less important than on platforms like Android where devices are only updated for a much shorter duration and often several months after that version is released by Google.
manmal 3y ago
Apple need to ensure as many apps as possible raise their deployment target as soon as possible so that users with old devices are encouraged to upgrade to newer devices.
- simonh 3y ago
  The latest stuff is still compatible with 5 year old iPhones. 80% of iPhones run the latest OS precisely because they are dead serious about long term support for devices.
  - manmal 3y ago
    5 years could certainly be improved upon. Those devices cost north of 1k now. I‘ve been an iOS dev since iOS 4, and have always been put off by this sneaky way of planned obsolescence. Older iOS releases do get security fixes, but only a tiny fraction of the fixes newer versions get. I don’t find this applaudable.
    - secretsatan 3y ago
      Is there an alternative that offers longer? Apple do seem to be shortening a bit, but as an app developer, we generally support iOS 2 versions behind unless there’s a particularly good feature we want to add to our workflow. I don’t see much of interest to us in 17, I’m surprised there weren’t any major updates to arkit considering the announcement of Vision Pro
      - manmal 3y ago
        Samsung is ca on par or slightly worse (depends what year you are looking at), but it’s hard to compare because Android updates are more fine grained and can partially be done without releasing the whole OS. With Samsung you at least know how many releases you‘ll get and how many years of security updates a phone is good for. And afterwards you might be able to put Ubuntu or Lineage on it. I think, as a dev, it’s reasonable to only target the last 2 versions on iOS, but this is owed to bespoke Apple‘s behavior regarding new APIs. Android devs usually need to support twice as much or more major versions, but it’s way less painful for them because the Support Library (now Jetpack) allows them to use a big part of the latest stuff. For example, you can use Jetpack Compose (SwiftUI pendant) with min API level 21 which was released 9 years ago. If you have a phone from 2012 that happened to get an Android 5 update, you can run modern declarative UI on that. The first iPhone that can run SwiftUI is the 6s, released in 2015.
alwillis 3y ago
> Why wouldn’t Apple make these available downstream? Because it probably relies on new stuff that's only in the new version of the operating system. Otherwise, you'd have to back port a chunk of your new stuff to the older operating system, creating a lot more work for little gain. And why do all of that when over 80% of the installed base will be running iOS 17 within 8 months, so what are you really gaining?

by mrtksn 3y ago

wilg 3y ago

> Why wouldn’t Apple make these available downstream? Because Apple cannot figure out that their deployment model is hamstringing adoption of their technologies.

plagiarist 3y ago
They actually can figure that out, though [0]. I hope this can solve some of it because their deployment model is the dumbest fucking thing. I'm glad they figured out how to backport async/await, it's just impossible to use in a serious library otherwise. [0] https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/main/proposals/0376-function-back-deployment.md https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/main/proposals...
- _2z1p 3y ago
  Over 80% of iPhones are running the latest version. I’ll take that any day as a developer over the Android hellscape of versions that need to be tested for and supported. https://www.macrumors.com/2023/06/01/apple-shares-ios-16-adoption-statistics/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/06/01/apple-shares-ios-16-ado...
  - alwillis 3y ago
    > Over 80% of iPhones are running the latest version. If the past is any indicator, the number will be over 90% by the time iOS 17 ships this fall.
    - ecedeno 3y ago
      I doubt iOS 17 will be adopted faster than previous versions. For one, they are dropping support for multiple device generations this time.
      - alwillis 3y ago
        > I doubt iOS 17 will be adopted faster than previous versions. For one, they are dropping support for multiple device generations this time. Each release gets adopted faster than the previous version; there’s no reason to expect anything different this year. Also, just about every new iOS release drops support for older iPhones; this isn’t new. No longer requiring developer accounts to install the iOS 17 beta will only increase the rate of adoption—many millions of users who aren’t developers will be running it before the official release in September, unlike years past.
      - Dreami 3y ago
        They are actually of the same age, the iPhone 8 and X came out at the same time (yes it’s still confusing now)
  - wilg 3y ago
    Same, but its still a 1 year lag on relying on a new API. Probably 2 or 3 in practice if you support the old OSes for a bit. Could be zero lag.
  - carstenhag 3y ago
    Some input as an Android dev: the API level stuff is not nearly as much as a problem as it was some years ago. Nowadays you can easily require 23 or 25 (see https://apilevels.com/ https://apilevels.com/) - since 23, there were definitely some changes, but not terribly big ones that are really painful. I'm rather getting a headache with new form factors (window insets, foldables, tablets being revived). Also: Usually all google libs are backwards compatible to 21. The new ui system (Compose) just gets shipped with the app itself, increasing download/installation size. Apple does not do this afaik, they require a recent minimum OS version for compose ui.
    - myko 3y ago
      As an iOS developer SwiftUI not being a library has been a huge pain, there were major bugs in point releases of iOS 13/14. It has improved a lot but there's still major headaches version to version.
  - myko 3y ago
    > over the Android hellscape of versions that need to be tested for and supported. Isn't really an issue these days. Almost everything Google puts out is in the Jetpack libraries and backported many major versions.
qwytw 3y ago
Why? This way their new stuff get a year or two of free testing and time to mature before widespread adoption.

lockhouse 3y ago

Apple actively encourages everyone to adopt the latest version. If your device is from 2018 or newer it will support the latest OS, so back porting frameworks is less important than on platforms like Android where devices are only updated for a much shorter duration and often several months after that version is released by Google.

manmal 3y ago

Apple need to ensure as many apps as possible raise their deployment target as soon as possible so that users with old devices are encouraged to upgrade to newer devices.

simonh 3y ago
The latest stuff is still compatible with 5 year old iPhones. 80% of iPhones run the latest OS precisely because they are dead serious about long term support for devices.
- manmal 3y ago
  5 years could certainly be improved upon. Those devices cost north of 1k now. I‘ve been an iOS dev since iOS 4, and have always been put off by this sneaky way of planned obsolescence. Older iOS releases do get security fixes, but only a tiny fraction of the fixes newer versions get. I don’t find this applaudable.
  - secretsatan 3y ago
    Is there an alternative that offers longer? Apple do seem to be shortening a bit, but as an app developer, we generally support iOS 2 versions behind unless there’s a particularly good feature we want to add to our workflow. I don’t see much of interest to us in 17, I’m surprised there weren’t any major updates to arkit considering the announcement of Vision Pro
    - manmal 3y ago
      Samsung is ca on par or slightly worse (depends what year you are looking at), but it’s hard to compare because Android updates are more fine grained and can partially be done without releasing the whole OS. With Samsung you at least know how many releases you‘ll get and how many years of security updates a phone is good for. And afterwards you might be able to put Ubuntu or Lineage on it. I think, as a dev, it’s reasonable to only target the last 2 versions on iOS, but this is owed to bespoke Apple‘s behavior regarding new APIs. Android devs usually need to support twice as much or more major versions, but it’s way less painful for them because the Support Library (now Jetpack) allows them to use a big part of the latest stuff. For example, you can use Jetpack Compose (SwiftUI pendant) with min API level 21 which was released 9 years ago. If you have a phone from 2012 that happened to get an Android 5 update, you can run modern declarative UI on that. The first iPhone that can run SwiftUI is the 6s, released in 2015.

alwillis 3y ago

> Why wouldn’t Apple make these available downstream? Because it probably relies on new stuff that's only in the new version of the operating system. Otherwise, you'd have to back port a chunk of your new stuff to the older operating system, creating a lot more work for little gain. And why do all of that when over 80% of the installed base will be running iOS 17 within 8 months, so what are you really gaining?