7 ms·

I recently formed a very simply rule for myself to mitigate this nonsense: no table service, no tip. Boom, guilt/pressure eliminated. Implementing a policy (at

I recently formed a very simply rule for myself to mitigate this nonsense: no table service, no tip. Boom, guilt/pressure eliminated. Implementing a policy (at, say, Starbucks) to add a prompt to every point-of-sale interaction to simply ask for more money is corporate panhandling. I'll happily pay higher prices to support your staff.

Solvency 3y ago
My fear at not tipping at literally every Square/Clover terminal (coffee shop, sandwich shop, etc) is that the employee...who almost always vigilantly watches to see if I tap on one of the unavoidable tip options...may seek revenge for me not tipping. Doing something to the food, drink, whatever. I feel like the whole modern POS system customer UX is designed to make the act of not tipping feel so overt, miserly, and risky.
- jondwillis 3y ago
  Anecdote, but most often the employees I encounter will politely look away, or the terminal will be positioned in a way that it provides cover.
  - jb1991 3y ago
    Surely they can see the result of the sale after it has transacted though, right? Doesn’t the system that is used to ring the stuff up show the payment history for the order that’s currently being prepared?
    - skyyler 3y ago
      In most foodservice jobs, there simply isn't enough time to scrutinize the receipt like that. There are exceptions, I'm sure, but my days waiting tables were infinitely more hectic than my days as a sysadmin.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  > who almost always vigilantly watches to see if I tap on one of the unavoidable tip options Well, they would see it on their screen anyway right?
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    There are a number of places in my city where if you add a tip on at the PoS, the employee will look at the amount and remove that amount of cash from the till and put it in the tip jar.
- hashmap 3y ago
  On balance this is a very classist reaction. Restaurant staff in general is not going to stick their neck out to assault customers.
  - gretch 3y ago
    It's not a general problem... if 99/100 won't spit in your coffee, that's still gonna cause anxiety. Not all restaurant workers are rational agents.
- soupfordummies 3y ago
  Another anecdote - I worked in SEVERAL restaurants for over a decade and never once even HEARD of that happening. Same with fudging credit card tips. I HEARD of that happening exactly once. Both are overblown, almost urban legends.
  - commandlinefan 3y ago
    That's heartening to hear... but I'm still afraid of it happening to me.
  - tennisflyi 3y ago
    Yes. 99% are just too busy to fuck with your food.
    - sedawk 3y ago
      [dead]
  - Tommstein 3y ago
    > Same with fudging credit card tips. I HEARD of that happening exactly once. It happened to me a couple years ago. Got a copy of the receipt where they wrote their own tip, which I could trivially prove since I had a picture of the receipt as I left it. The bar tried to blame it on a random customer. Yeah, OK. Informed everyone in the big group I was with that the place tries to steal from you and have never been back. You have now heard of that happening exactly twice.
- rongenre 3y ago
  I'll tip for an espresso beverage, because there's skill involved in making a nice cappuccino - at a minimum you need to be sure to foam the milk without boiling it. There was a place (in Berkeley of course) where I was pretty sure that if the barista didn't like your tip, they'd boil the milk for you.
  - 9dev 3y ago
    Subtle. I like that man.
- ch4s3 3y ago
  This is a weird fear. I worked in restaurants in college and a terrible cafe in grad school in a wealthy/old money-ish neighborhood. The cafe had terrible tips despite there being made to order food and tons of regular customers. We just made fun of stingy customers behind their backs. No one I've ever known in food service of the bar industry HAS EVER tampered with or spit in a drink/food. First and foremost, you'd be fired on the spot if anyone saw it. Also, food service people, and this may surprise you, also eat in restaurants.
  - yellowcake0 3y ago
    That's admirable that you didn't spit in anybody's food, but why is it stingy not to tip for counter service, or did you have wait staff at your cafe?
    - ch4s3 3y ago
      It isn’t admirable, it’s just not a thing that anyone really did or does. It seems to me that if someone takes your order and cooks hot door for you and a place you go to twice a week, it’s decent to tip at least occasionally. If staff knows your name and order and remembers details about you, but out always select no tip, that’s pretty anti-social.
      - tpoacher 3y ago
        Ditto for free coffees, stuff on the house, half-price Tuesdays...
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > This is a weird fear. To be fair, most fears people have are weird when you really examine them.
    - ch4s3 3y ago
      Sure, we’re just talking about this particular one here and now.
- psychlops 3y ago
  My rule there is that there will be no tipping until after a service is performed. It makes no sense to provide a range of tipping options for the predicted service that may be provided.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    Exactly. I could get my coffee and drink half of it before i realize there is a dead bug in it, etc. I could go back and get another, but now my opinion of the service is negative. And why would I trust the next cup? Ditto for tipping before you get in the cab. They could take you on a loop around the city, or drive you to a back alley and rape/rob you. You tip after you arrive. Table service, taxi, and maybe bellboy schlepping heavy luggage to a hotel room -- and after the work is done.
  - ballenf 3y ago
    I wonder what would happen if I refuse to interact with the terminal and ask the cashier to read it to me. Would they select a tip without asking? Would they be too embarrassed to ask me for a tip to my face? Feels like punishing the wrong person, but it would be still interesting to test.
- stemlord 3y ago
  Imagine the number of people who aren't tipping throughout their workday. You don't matter to them enough for them to lay their livlihood on the line for "revenge", I promise.
- mikecoles 3y ago
  I've been using cash more and more since these 'tipping suggested' kiosks and payment terminals have become more popular. Has anyone managed to try tipping a negative amount (to fill a security curiosity )?
  - Tommstein 3y ago
    Why would the tipping screen have a negative sign? Not that I haven't encountered service that I wished I could've tipped a negative amount for . . . .
    - mikecoles 3y ago
      It doesn't necessarily need to be a '-'. Find a value for the tip that overflows the variable type, possibly. I'm not suggesting that this is likely. Curiosity above what code is running under the covers is all.
- dokem 3y ago
  Holy shit man grow some balls. Yes, this is a constructive comment. You cannot let yourself be pushed around and extorted by such petty 'fears'.
MattGaiser 3y ago
> I'll happily pay higher prices to support your staff. So why is paying them directly more objectionable? I get the objections of people who wouldn’t pay who now feel coerced, but if you would pay a higher price, isn’t it better to send the money directly to the staff?
- mgkimsal 3y ago
  happy to pay higher prices...instead of tipping. Tipping still supports the system, and there's way too many horror stories of managers/owners stealing tips. It's just a bad system. Just raise prices. Stop adding fees, pushing tipping, etc.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
    You and me both, but it won't happen for several reasons: 1) The kind of people who bitch about tipping actually just hate the expectation of it. They're the same people who bitch about the price of everything and how "no one wants to work" when there's a staffing shortage that inconveniences them. They want to keep things just the way they are so they can continue feeling rightously indignant for not tipping instead of admitting they just don't give a shit about labor. 2) Business owners love the system because it effectively means the customers who aren't jackasses subsidize the ones who are and they can pretend the cost of their product is lower than it actually is. 3) The US is a hellscape run by sociopaths that routinely and gleefully burns its people on the alter of mammon. Nearly everyone in a position to do anything about this situation is both 1 and 2.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > They're the same people who bitch about the price of everything and how "no one wants to work" when there's a staffing shortage that inconveniences them. I think that brush is too broad.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Because a higher price makes it part of the business equation. Relying on tips instead is pure emotional extortion. I would hope that businesses would rather have customers going away feeling good about an aboveboard transaction than feeling guilty or extorted.
intrasight 3y ago
And tip in cash directly to that server.
hashmap 3y ago
The better societal rule is to disallow tipped employees from receiving less than minimum wage. A better step yet is barring restaurant staff from receiving tips altogether. The marginal benefit from letting them accept the generosity of customers is far overcome by abusive employers leaning on the guilt of customers to pay their employees something to live on.
- seneca 3y ago
  > The better societal rule is to disallow tipped employees from receiving less than minimum wage. That's already the case. Tipped employees have to be paid the normal hourly minimize wage if their reduced wage plus tips doesn't equal out to minimum. This has been the law for decades.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    That's not the same at all, though. All that means is that the employer gets to legally steal tips and convert them into wages.
    - seneca 3y ago
      It is literally exactly what it means. Tipped employees can not legally be paid less than the standard minimum wage.
      - mecha_ghidorah 3y ago
        I believe they meant "minimum wage always, then with any tips they get added to it", not "minimum wage if tips aren't enough to get them there"
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        But they can be paid that minimum wage in part through the employer stealing the employee's tips. So, not really paying them the minimum wage.
  - hashmap 3y ago
strangattractor 3y ago
I started doing flat rate tipping for takeout - $5. Not really getting any service other than cooking the food. I wish the entire tipping thing would just disappear. The staff should be paid a living wage. It should not be up to customers to insure that happens and staff should not have to depend on fickle customers to earn what they are worth.
danpalmer 3y ago
I'm trying to figure out what the basis for this decision is, interested in your thoughts on this... It's not about paying fair wages because as others have noted, takeout is being handled by the same people on the same wages. It can't be about taking the order, because again, takeout. Is it about bringing the food to the table? Because boxing up takeout orders or bringing them out of the kitchen feels pretty much the same to me. Is it about serving drinks? Well those are also in takeout/fast food/etc. Is it about asking how your meal is going? That doesn't have a direct equivalent, but is it worth tens of dollars to be asked how your meal is and reply "it's great thanks". I'm only familiar with US tipping culture from the internet, the UK doesn't have the same, or I'm oblivious to it and don't tip. I've always found the tipping reasons a bit arbitrary though. I understand using table service as a condition in order to reduce the situations in which you're tipping, but it feels like the tipping needs to be connected to an explicit service, and yet from the above I feel like it isn't, so it's still arbitrary.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Carrying a lot of plates that are open is a bit of a skill as opposed to boxes; most people would struggle without a tray. There’s also bussing the table and cleaning up afterwards.
  - danpalmer 3y ago
    Good point about the cleaning, but there's a lot of cleaning that happens without table service, including for example, clearing up mess at fast food restaurants where I'm sure tips aren't generally being paid. Carrying plates is more work than carrying a takeout bag, but is carrying plates a few meters the thing that warrants tens of dollars? Hell to save $10 on a meal I'd happily collect it from the kitchen myself. Some places even do this with the little buzzers that go off.
    - bobthepanda 3y ago
      I don’t normally eat at places where a single person is spending $50 per meal (assuming 20% tip). And if you have multiple people, depending on the type of food and the portion size that number of plates and glasses expands. It’s worth noting that the tip is distributed amongst people who serve, so at a $50 price point that probably includes whoever made/recommended your drink. I also wouldn’t tip at buzzer places.
Aunche 3y ago
I'm noticing a trend of utilizing mental gymnastics to frame what benefits them personally as altruistic. This occurs often with policy (like student loan forgiveness), but this is most obvious with tipping. The staff are the ones who benefit from tipping the most. That's why the Starbucks union demanded it. Tipping does help businesses as well, but it's because of price discrimination rather than "panhandling". So long as you're a customer, they don't care either way. If you're happy to pay higher prices that get passed to employees, you should be happy to give that money to them directly. If you feel that tipping degrades your customer experience, that's a perfectly justifiable reason not to tip. Pretending that you're sticking it to corporations by not tipping just comes off as childish.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > If you're happy to pay higher prices that get passed to employees, you should be happy to give that money to them directly. I disagree. The problem with tipping isn't the money, it's the way that the money is demanded.
marssaxman 3y ago
I have recently adopted the same policy. Partially outsourcing payroll management to one's customers is a terrible idea.

Solvency 3y ago

My fear at not tipping at literally every Square/Clover terminal (coffee shop, sandwich shop, etc) is that the employee...who almost always vigilantly watches to see if I tap on one of the unavoidable tip options...may seek revenge for me not tipping. Doing something to the food, drink, whatever. I feel like the whole modern POS system customer UX is designed to make the act of not tipping feel so overt, miserly, and risky.

jondwillis 3y ago
Anecdote, but most often the employees I encounter will politely look away, or the terminal will be positioned in a way that it provides cover.
- jb1991 3y ago
  Surely they can see the result of the sale after it has transacted though, right? Doesn’t the system that is used to ring the stuff up show the payment history for the order that’s currently being prepared?
  - skyyler 3y ago
    In most foodservice jobs, there simply isn't enough time to scrutinize the receipt like that. There are exceptions, I'm sure, but my days waiting tables were infinitely more hectic than my days as a sysadmin.
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
> who almost always vigilantly watches to see if I tap on one of the unavoidable tip options Well, they would see it on their screen anyway right?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  There are a number of places in my city where if you add a tip on at the PoS, the employee will look at the amount and remove that amount of cash from the till and put it in the tip jar.
hashmap 3y ago
On balance this is a very classist reaction. Restaurant staff in general is not going to stick their neck out to assault customers.
- gretch 3y ago
  It's not a general problem... if 99/100 won't spit in your coffee, that's still gonna cause anxiety. Not all restaurant workers are rational agents.
soupfordummies 3y ago
Another anecdote - I worked in SEVERAL restaurants for over a decade and never once even HEARD of that happening. Same with fudging credit card tips. I HEARD of that happening exactly once. Both are overblown, almost urban legends.
- commandlinefan 3y ago
  That's heartening to hear... but I'm still afraid of it happening to me.
- tennisflyi 3y ago
  Yes. 99% are just too busy to fuck with your food.
  - sedawk 3y ago
    [dead]
- Tommstein 3y ago
  > Same with fudging credit card tips. I HEARD of that happening exactly once. It happened to me a couple years ago. Got a copy of the receipt where they wrote their own tip, which I could trivially prove since I had a picture of the receipt as I left it. The bar tried to blame it on a random customer. Yeah, OK. Informed everyone in the big group I was with that the place tries to steal from you and have never been back. You have now heard of that happening exactly twice.
rongenre 3y ago
I'll tip for an espresso beverage, because there's skill involved in making a nice cappuccino - at a minimum you need to be sure to foam the milk without boiling it. There was a place (in Berkeley of course) where I was pretty sure that if the barista didn't like your tip, they'd boil the milk for you.
- 9dev 3y ago
  Subtle. I like that man.
ch4s3 3y ago
This is a weird fear. I worked in restaurants in college and a terrible cafe in grad school in a wealthy/old money-ish neighborhood. The cafe had terrible tips despite there being made to order food and tons of regular customers. We just made fun of stingy customers behind their backs. No one I've ever known in food service of the bar industry HAS EVER tampered with or spit in a drink/food. First and foremost, you'd be fired on the spot if anyone saw it. Also, food service people, and this may surprise you, also eat in restaurants.
- yellowcake0 3y ago
  That's admirable that you didn't spit in anybody's food, but why is it stingy not to tip for counter service, or did you have wait staff at your cafe?
  - ch4s3 3y ago
    It isn’t admirable, it’s just not a thing that anyone really did or does. It seems to me that if someone takes your order and cooks hot door for you and a place you go to twice a week, it’s decent to tip at least occasionally. If staff knows your name and order and remembers details about you, but out always select no tip, that’s pretty anti-social.
    - tpoacher 3y ago
      Ditto for free coffees, stuff on the house, half-price Tuesdays...
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > This is a weird fear. To be fair, most fears people have are weird when you really examine them.
  - ch4s3 3y ago
    Sure, we’re just talking about this particular one here and now.
psychlops 3y ago
My rule there is that there will be no tipping until after a service is performed. It makes no sense to provide a range of tipping options for the predicted service that may be provided.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  Exactly. I could get my coffee and drink half of it before i realize there is a dead bug in it, etc. I could go back and get another, but now my opinion of the service is negative. And why would I trust the next cup? Ditto for tipping before you get in the cab. They could take you on a loop around the city, or drive you to a back alley and rape/rob you. You tip after you arrive. Table service, taxi, and maybe bellboy schlepping heavy luggage to a hotel room -- and after the work is done.
- ballenf 3y ago
  I wonder what would happen if I refuse to interact with the terminal and ask the cashier to read it to me. Would they select a tip without asking? Would they be too embarrassed to ask me for a tip to my face? Feels like punishing the wrong person, but it would be still interesting to test.
stemlord 3y ago
Imagine the number of people who aren't tipping throughout their workday. You don't matter to them enough for them to lay their livlihood on the line for "revenge", I promise.
mikecoles 3y ago
I've been using cash more and more since these 'tipping suggested' kiosks and payment terminals have become more popular. Has anyone managed to try tipping a negative amount (to fill a security curiosity )?
- Tommstein 3y ago
  Why would the tipping screen have a negative sign? Not that I haven't encountered service that I wished I could've tipped a negative amount for . . . .
  - mikecoles 3y ago
    It doesn't necessarily need to be a '-'. Find a value for the tip that overflows the variable type, possibly. I'm not suggesting that this is likely. Curiosity above what code is running under the covers is all.
dokem 3y ago
Holy shit man grow some balls. Yes, this is a constructive comment. You cannot let yourself be pushed around and extorted by such petty 'fears'.

MattGaiser 3y ago

> I'll happily pay higher prices to support your staff. So why is paying them directly more objectionable? I get the objections of people who wouldn’t pay who now feel coerced, but if you would pay a higher price, isn’t it better to send the money directly to the staff?

mgkimsal 3y ago
happy to pay higher prices...instead of tipping. Tipping still supports the system, and there's way too many horror stories of managers/owners stealing tips. It's just a bad system. Just raise prices. Stop adding fees, pushing tipping, etc.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
  You and me both, but it won't happen for several reasons: 1) The kind of people who bitch about tipping actually just hate the expectation of it. They're the same people who bitch about the price of everything and how "no one wants to work" when there's a staffing shortage that inconveniences them. They want to keep things just the way they are so they can continue feeling rightously indignant for not tipping instead of admitting they just don't give a shit about labor. 2) Business owners love the system because it effectively means the customers who aren't jackasses subsidize the ones who are and they can pretend the cost of their product is lower than it actually is. 3) The US is a hellscape run by sociopaths that routinely and gleefully burns its people on the alter of mammon. Nearly everyone in a position to do anything about this situation is both 1 and 2.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > They're the same people who bitch about the price of everything and how "no one wants to work" when there's a staffing shortage that inconveniences them. I think that brush is too broad.
JohnFen 3y ago
Because a higher price makes it part of the business equation. Relying on tips instead is pure emotional extortion. I would hope that businesses would rather have customers going away feeling good about an aboveboard transaction than feeling guilty or extorted.

intrasight 3y ago

And tip in cash directly to that server.

hashmap 3y ago

The better societal rule is to disallow tipped employees from receiving less than minimum wage. A better step yet is barring restaurant staff from receiving tips altogether. The marginal benefit from letting them accept the generosity of customers is far overcome by abusive employers leaning on the guilt of customers to pay their employees something to live on.

seneca 3y ago
> The better societal rule is to disallow tipped employees from receiving less than minimum wage. That's already the case. Tipped employees have to be paid the normal hourly minimize wage if their reduced wage plus tips doesn't equal out to minimum. This has been the law for decades.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  That's not the same at all, though. All that means is that the employer gets to legally steal tips and convert them into wages.
  - seneca 3y ago
    It is literally exactly what it means. Tipped employees can not legally be paid less than the standard minimum wage.
    - mecha_ghidorah 3y ago
      I believe they meant "minimum wage always, then with any tips they get added to it", not "minimum wage if tips aren't enough to get them there"
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      But they can be paid that minimum wage in part through the employer stealing the employee's tips. So, not really paying them the minimum wage.
- hashmap 3y ago

strangattractor 3y ago

I started doing flat rate tipping for takeout - $5. Not really getting any service other than cooking the food. I wish the entire tipping thing would just disappear. The staff should be paid a living wage. It should not be up to customers to insure that happens and staff should not have to depend on fickle customers to earn what they are worth.

danpalmer 3y ago

I'm trying to figure out what the basis for this decision is, interested in your thoughts on this... It's not about paying fair wages because as others have noted, takeout is being handled by the same people on the same wages. It can't be about taking the order, because again, takeout. Is it about bringing the food to the table? Because boxing up takeout orders or bringing them out of the kitchen feels pretty much the same to me. Is it about serving drinks? Well those are also in takeout/fast food/etc. Is it about asking how your meal is going? That doesn't have a direct equivalent, but is it worth tens of dollars to be asked how your meal is and reply "it's great thanks". I'm only familiar with US tipping culture from the internet, the UK doesn't have the same, or I'm oblivious to it and don't tip. I've always found the tipping reasons a bit arbitrary though. I understand using table service as a condition in order to reduce the situations in which you're tipping, but it feels like the tipping needs to be connected to an explicit service, and yet from the above I feel like it isn't, so it's still arbitrary.

bobthepanda 3y ago
Carrying a lot of plates that are open is a bit of a skill as opposed to boxes; most people would struggle without a tray. There’s also bussing the table and cleaning up afterwards.
- danpalmer 3y ago
  Good point about the cleaning, but there's a lot of cleaning that happens without table service, including for example, clearing up mess at fast food restaurants where I'm sure tips aren't generally being paid. Carrying plates is more work than carrying a takeout bag, but is carrying plates a few meters the thing that warrants tens of dollars? Hell to save $10 on a meal I'd happily collect it from the kitchen myself. Some places even do this with the little buzzers that go off.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    I don’t normally eat at places where a single person is spending $50 per meal (assuming 20% tip). And if you have multiple people, depending on the type of food and the portion size that number of plates and glasses expands. It’s worth noting that the tip is distributed amongst people who serve, so at a $50 price point that probably includes whoever made/recommended your drink. I also wouldn’t tip at buzzer places.

Aunche 3y ago

I'm noticing a trend of utilizing mental gymnastics to frame what benefits them personally as altruistic. This occurs often with policy (like student loan forgiveness), but this is most obvious with tipping. The staff are the ones who benefit from tipping the most. That's why the Starbucks union demanded it. Tipping does help businesses as well, but it's because of price discrimination rather than "panhandling". So long as you're a customer, they don't care either way. If you're happy to pay higher prices that get passed to employees, you should be happy to give that money to them directly. If you feel that tipping degrades your customer experience, that's a perfectly justifiable reason not to tip. Pretending that you're sticking it to corporations by not tipping just comes off as childish.

JohnFen 3y ago
> If you're happy to pay higher prices that get passed to employees, you should be happy to give that money to them directly. I disagree. The problem with tipping isn't the money, it's the way that the money is demanded.

marssaxman 3y ago

I have recently adopted the same policy. Partially outsourcing payroll management to one's customers is a terrible idea.