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> If my personal social circle is showing huge losses in these companies, I have to imagine that other people out there have similar experiences. This is a per

> If my personal social circle is showing huge losses in these companies, I have to imagine that other people out there have similar experiences. This is a personal bias. I've made $86,000 trading Ethereum. My brother-in-law made $24,000 trading Bitcoin. My reality is different from your reality ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I can't speak for Celsius, Voyager, and FTX. If there was a scam, it has to be punished. No questions asked. But Coinbase has been closely working with SEC for years.

dragontamer 3y ago
> I've made $86,000 trading Ethereum That's not the problem. The problem is that companies like Celsius, FTX, and Voyager are disappearing and collapsing. Binance and Coinbase are two other companies that could just randomly disappear because of how incredibly sketchy their products are (especially "Earn" or "Staking" products). I'm pointing out companies that collapse (taking literally Billions of American money away). And you're just coming in here saying "But I made money on something totally unrelated", as if its a good argument? > This is a personal bias. I'll proudly be biased in favor of reality. There's nothing wrong with taking a stance when my real world friends get affected. > I can't speak for Celsius, Voyager, and FTX. If there was a scam, it has to be punished. No questions asked. But Coinbase has been closely working with SEC for years. Coinbase is doing the same thing as Celsius, Voyager, and FTX with their Earn / Staking products. And now the SEC is suing them over it. There's a pattern here. And I for one, am glad that the SEC is no longer fickle and is trying to be proactive about it. Trying to get American money out of these dangerous instruments before they collapse, rather than after (when its too late).
- andreygrehov 3y ago
  Dude, I made that comment in response to your "My coworker lost $X0,000 over Celsius" to highlight the fact that not everyone's circle is losing money. > Coinbase is doing the same thing as Celsius, Voyager, and FTX with their Earn / Staking products. And now the SEC is suing them over it. Why can't SEC work with Coinbase before suing them? Again, Coinbase has been seeking help from SEC for years. Brian Armstrong, the CEO of Coinbase, talked about this so many times. They are trying to work with the regulators, but the problem is that the regulators lack expertise dealing with these new asset types.
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    > Dude, I made that comment in response to your "My coworker lost $X0,000 over Celsius" to highlight the fact that not everyone's circle is losing money. But you making money doesn't allow my friend, or anyone from FTX, or Voyager to get their money back. And you fail to see that it is HOW he lost money that I take issue with. Celsius lied about unregulated staking/interest yielding instruments to him and the natur of how it worked. And Coinbase is making the same lie right now with Coinbase Earn. And you are sitting here defending it, and ignoring three major collapses last year while doing so.
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    > Why can't SEC work with Coinbase before suing them? Again, Coinbase has been seeking help from SEC for years. How has Coinbase been "seeking help"? They are a company, they should be going to the SEC with all of the particulars of each of their investment items and saying to the SEC "We believe we have met your standards of fiduciary duty on these items that appear to be securities, have we?" They shouldn't be saying, "Hey, SEC, are these things we're selling securities, and thus need a higher standard of duty of care? Tee hee, we can't figure it out on our own, as we're just a little company with thousands of employees trading billions of dollars a year. Until you get back to us we'll just assume that they aren't securities and won't bother meeting the higher standard of care."
    - andreygrehov 3y ago
      They filed a petition which SEC failed to address. The result is Coinbase suing SEC. Now, SEC sues Coinbase back. Seriously, wtf? SEC needs a massive slap on their hands. If they lack expertise and don't have enough knowledge (literally), then whoever works there should go "back to school" (figuratively speaking), learn all the ins and outs of crypto, and only after consider joining the SEC as an employee. https://assets.ctfassets.net/c5bd0wqjc7v0/5PWsXaPsqQ61gA9wlFWKEX/d1d3a27d35687082565770589ef9a3ac/Coinbase_-_Mandamus_Petition__TO_FILE_.pdf https://assets.ctfassets.net/c5bd0wqjc7v0/5PWsXaPsqQ61gA9wlF... Coinbase brings this mandamus action to seek modest, but meaningful and time-sensitive, relief: a writ requiring the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC or Commission) to act on Coinbase’s pending rulemaking petition to provide clarity for the crypto industry. Coinbase does not ask the Court to instruct the agency how to respond. It simply requests that the Court order the SEC to respond at all. The Commission has repeatedly demonstrated that its mind is made up to deny the petition. But the Commission’s delay in formally announcing that decision has enabled it to improperly delay judicial review at a critical moment for the industry.
lifeonlars 3y ago
That's irrelevant. By definition, Ponzi schemes involve some investors making a lot of money and others losing. That doesn't make them any less illegal. If some people are harmed by unlawful behavior, that is a reason to prosecute, just the same as if you mugged Alice and bought Bob an icecream with the proceeds.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  Would pumping Bob's stomach be an unreasonable seizure? How can Alice be made whole if it is?
loeg 3y ago
Gains and losses between different investors don't net out. The SEC is interested in protecting the investors who lost (or would lose).

dragontamer 3y ago

> I've made $86,000 trading Ethereum That's not the problem. The problem is that companies like Celsius, FTX, and Voyager are disappearing and collapsing. Binance and Coinbase are two other companies that could just randomly disappear because of how incredibly sketchy their products are (especially "Earn" or "Staking" products). I'm pointing out companies that collapse (taking literally Billions of American money away). And you're just coming in here saying "But I made money on something totally unrelated", as if its a good argument? > This is a personal bias. I'll proudly be biased in favor of reality. There's nothing wrong with taking a stance when my real world friends get affected. > I can't speak for Celsius, Voyager, and FTX. If there was a scam, it has to be punished. No questions asked. But Coinbase has been closely working with SEC for years. Coinbase is doing the same thing as Celsius, Voyager, and FTX with their Earn / Staking products. And now the SEC is suing them over it. There's a pattern here. And I for one, am glad that the SEC is no longer fickle and is trying to be proactive about it. Trying to get American money out of these dangerous instruments before they collapse, rather than after (when its too late).

andreygrehov 3y ago
Dude, I made that comment in response to your "My coworker lost $X0,000 over Celsius" to highlight the fact that not everyone's circle is losing money. > Coinbase is doing the same thing as Celsius, Voyager, and FTX with their Earn / Staking products. And now the SEC is suing them over it. Why can't SEC work with Coinbase before suing them? Again, Coinbase has been seeking help from SEC for years. Brian Armstrong, the CEO of Coinbase, talked about this so many times. They are trying to work with the regulators, but the problem is that the regulators lack expertise dealing with these new asset types.
- dragontamer 3y ago
  > Dude, I made that comment in response to your "My coworker lost $X0,000 over Celsius" to highlight the fact that not everyone's circle is losing money. But you making money doesn't allow my friend, or anyone from FTX, or Voyager to get their money back. And you fail to see that it is HOW he lost money that I take issue with. Celsius lied about unregulated staking/interest yielding instruments to him and the natur of how it worked. And Coinbase is making the same lie right now with Coinbase Earn. And you are sitting here defending it, and ignoring three major collapses last year while doing so.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  > Why can't SEC work with Coinbase before suing them? Again, Coinbase has been seeking help from SEC for years. How has Coinbase been "seeking help"? They are a company, they should be going to the SEC with all of the particulars of each of their investment items and saying to the SEC "We believe we have met your standards of fiduciary duty on these items that appear to be securities, have we?" They shouldn't be saying, "Hey, SEC, are these things we're selling securities, and thus need a higher standard of duty of care? Tee hee, we can't figure it out on our own, as we're just a little company with thousands of employees trading billions of dollars a year. Until you get back to us we'll just assume that they aren't securities and won't bother meeting the higher standard of care."
  - andreygrehov 3y ago
    They filed a petition which SEC failed to address. The result is Coinbase suing SEC. Now, SEC sues Coinbase back. Seriously, wtf? SEC needs a massive slap on their hands. If they lack expertise and don't have enough knowledge (literally), then whoever works there should go "back to school" (figuratively speaking), learn all the ins and outs of crypto, and only after consider joining the SEC as an employee. https://assets.ctfassets.net/c5bd0wqjc7v0/5PWsXaPsqQ61gA9wlFWKEX/d1d3a27d35687082565770589ef9a3ac/Coinbase_-_Mandamus_Petition__TO_FILE_.pdf https://assets.ctfassets.net/c5bd0wqjc7v0/5PWsXaPsqQ61gA9wlF... Coinbase brings this mandamus action to seek modest, but meaningful and time-sensitive, relief: a writ requiring the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC or Commission) to act on Coinbase’s pending rulemaking petition to provide clarity for the crypto industry. Coinbase does not ask the Court to instruct the agency how to respond. It simply requests that the Court order the SEC to respond at all. The Commission has repeatedly demonstrated that its mind is made up to deny the petition. But the Commission’s delay in formally announcing that decision has enabled it to improperly delay judicial review at a critical moment for the industry.

lifeonlars 3y ago

That's irrelevant. By definition, Ponzi schemes involve some investors making a lot of money and others losing. That doesn't make them any less illegal. If some people are harmed by unlawful behavior, that is a reason to prosecute, just the same as if you mugged Alice and bought Bob an icecream with the proceeds.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago
Would pumping Bob's stomach be an unreasonable seizure? How can Alice be made whole if it is?

loeg 3y ago

Gains and losses between different investors don't net out. The SEC is interested in protecting the investors who lost (or would lose).