3 ms·

PSA: Applying a consistent moral code when others refuse to do the same leaves you at a competitive disadvantage. It's better to play by the rules of whomever y

PSA: Applying a consistent moral code when others refuse to do the same leaves you at a competitive disadvantage. It's better to play by the rules of whomever you are playing with. A thief likes to play the theft game. Murders like to play the murder game. Normal people play the polite society game. Play the game that is currently being played, not the game you think everyone should be playing.

EscapeFromNY 3y ago
If someone is buying weed on a darknet site, would you feel morally justified in stealing from them?
- willcipriano 3y ago
  It they aren't stealing from someone then that's not the same game. A guy selling credit card numbers, given the opportunity he'd have nothing left.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > If someone is buying weed on a darknet site, would you feel morally justified in stealing from them? No, but I'd guess that GP feels morally justified in buying weed from him or selling weed to him. If the weed-buyer isn't playing the theft game, why do you believe that the GP would play the theft game?
  - EscapeFromNY 3y ago
    This is an article about darknet markets, and when I hear "darknet markets" I think of drugs. The impression I get from Bruce Schneier's blog is that other shady stuff like stealing credit cards or murder-for-hire sites (which are all fake) mostly happens on the clearnet. So it was odd to see someone make the casual jump from darknet markets to theft/murder.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      I was thinking of sites that deal exclusively in carding, scams, fencing stolen goods, etc. If your actions have blowback on morally innocent people (ie. Technically a law was broken but it was a crime without a direct victim), inadvertently or not, you are not acting morally.
lelanthran 3y ago
> PSA: Applying a consistent moral code when others refuse to do the same leaves you at a competitive disadvantage. It's better to play by the rules of whomever you are playing with. A thief likes to play the theft game. Murders like to play the murder game. Normal people play the polite society game. Play the game that is currently being played, not the game you think everyone should be playing. I've no idea why parent was voted down[1]; presumably a large number of people both object to "do unto others as they do unto you" AND are too shy to reply. [1] Honestly, in the last few days the voting of comments seem completely out of tune with how comments normally get voted. I'm seeing immediate downvotes of comments, which, over time, sometimes normalise. It's very odd.
- dcow 3y ago
  I’ve noticed this happen at times too. I don’t think it’s strictly a recent phenomenon.
- digging 3y ago
  New accounts can't downvote, so I'm suspicious of the idea that something weird is going on with downvoting. It's more likely the result of natural growth in the userbase.
  - lsaferite 3y ago
    I'm not a new account and I _still_ can't downvote in some situations. I haven't cared enough to figure out why, but it happens.
- isaacfrond 3y ago
  I mostly use my upvotes to correct others' downvotes.
- jstanley 3y ago
  The Golden Rule is that you should do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Not as they do do unto you. Applying a consistent moral code even when it puts you at a competitive disadvantage is what makes it a moral code in the first place. If you only stick to your morals when it's advantageous to do so then they're not your morals at all!
michaelmior 3y ago
> It's better to play by the rules of whomever you are playing with. This depends significantly on how you define "better." If I become a thief by stealing from thieves, I would not consider that to be a net positive outcome for me.
- xwdv 3y ago
  That’s not what he’s saying. In a world of thieves, if you steal from a thief there it is a net-positive outcome for you. Because in that world everyone steals so that creates a baseline. If you don’t steal, then it’s a net negative for you relative to that world.
  - michaelmior 3y ago
    It still depends on how you define the outcomes. In a world of thieves, I still would not define becoming a thief as a net positive. If you're talking solely in terms of material wealth, then sure.
    - xwdv 3y ago
      In the world of thieves, stealing isn’t a negative or even positive action, it’s just the way of life. Therefore, getting what you want by stealing leads to positive outcomes for you.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  Theft is the taking of property without consent. I argue that engaging in theft gives implicit consent to be stolen from, after all if you felt theft is bad you wouldn't of engaged in it. Therefore stealing from a thief isn't really stealing. Same goes for violence, if you had a problem with violence you wouldn't have engaged in violence, now that you have, let's be violent together.
JohnFen 3y ago
Amazing. In one fell swoop, you argued that it's OK to murder and steal. Needless to say, I could not disagree with your stance more strenuously.
sobkas 3y ago
> PSA: Applying a consistent moral code when others refuse to do the same leaves you at a competitive disadvantage. It's better to play by the rules of whomever you are playing with. A thief likes to play the theft game. Murders like to play the murder game. Normal people play the polite society game. Play the game that is currently being played, not the game you think everyone should be playing. Problem is that your perception of what kind of game is played might be wrong. And you treat people that don't deserve* more harshly or people that deserve* more lenient. *deserve your intended outcome

EscapeFromNY 3y ago

If someone is buying weed on a darknet site, would you feel morally justified in stealing from them?

willcipriano 3y ago
It they aren't stealing from someone then that's not the same game. A guy selling credit card numbers, given the opportunity he'd have nothing left.
lelanthran 3y ago
> If someone is buying weed on a darknet site, would you feel morally justified in stealing from them? No, but I'd guess that GP feels morally justified in buying weed from him or selling weed to him. If the weed-buyer isn't playing the theft game, why do you believe that the GP would play the theft game?
- EscapeFromNY 3y ago
  This is an article about darknet markets, and when I hear "darknet markets" I think of drugs. The impression I get from Bruce Schneier's blog is that other shady stuff like stealing credit cards or murder-for-hire sites (which are all fake) mostly happens on the clearnet. So it was odd to see someone make the casual jump from darknet markets to theft/murder.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    I was thinking of sites that deal exclusively in carding, scams, fencing stolen goods, etc. If your actions have blowback on morally innocent people (ie. Technically a law was broken but it was a crime without a direct victim), inadvertently or not, you are not acting morally.

lelanthran 3y ago

> PSA: Applying a consistent moral code when others refuse to do the same leaves you at a competitive disadvantage. It's better to play by the rules of whomever you are playing with. A thief likes to play the theft game. Murders like to play the murder game. Normal people play the polite society game. Play the game that is currently being played, not the game you think everyone should be playing. I've no idea why parent was voted down[1]; presumably a large number of people both object to "do unto others as they do unto you" AND are too shy to reply. [1] Honestly, in the last few days the voting of comments seem completely out of tune with how comments normally get voted. I'm seeing immediate downvotes of comments, which, over time, sometimes normalise. It's very odd.

dcow 3y ago
I’ve noticed this happen at times too. I don’t think it’s strictly a recent phenomenon.
digging 3y ago
New accounts can't downvote, so I'm suspicious of the idea that something weird is going on with downvoting. It's more likely the result of natural growth in the userbase.
- lsaferite 3y ago
  I'm not a new account and I _still_ can't downvote in some situations. I haven't cared enough to figure out why, but it happens.
isaacfrond 3y ago
I mostly use my upvotes to correct others' downvotes.
jstanley 3y ago
The Golden Rule is that you should do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Not as they do do unto you. Applying a consistent moral code even when it puts you at a competitive disadvantage is what makes it a moral code in the first place. If you only stick to your morals when it's advantageous to do so then they're not your morals at all!

michaelmior 3y ago

> It's better to play by the rules of whomever you are playing with. This depends significantly on how you define "better." If I become a thief by stealing from thieves, I would not consider that to be a net positive outcome for me.

xwdv 3y ago
That’s not what he’s saying. In a world of thieves, if you steal from a thief there it is a net-positive outcome for you. Because in that world everyone steals so that creates a baseline. If you don’t steal, then it’s a net negative for you relative to that world.
- michaelmior 3y ago
  It still depends on how you define the outcomes. In a world of thieves, I still would not define becoming a thief as a net positive. If you're talking solely in terms of material wealth, then sure.
  - xwdv 3y ago
    In the world of thieves, stealing isn’t a negative or even positive action, it’s just the way of life. Therefore, getting what you want by stealing leads to positive outcomes for you.
willcipriano 3y ago
Theft is the taking of property without consent. I argue that engaging in theft gives implicit consent to be stolen from, after all if you felt theft is bad you wouldn't of engaged in it. Therefore stealing from a thief isn't really stealing. Same goes for violence, if you had a problem with violence you wouldn't have engaged in violence, now that you have, let's be violent together.

JohnFen 3y ago

Amazing. In one fell swoop, you argued that it's OK to murder and steal. Needless to say, I could not disagree with your stance more strenuously.

sobkas 3y ago

> PSA: Applying a consistent moral code when others refuse to do the same leaves you at a competitive disadvantage. It's better to play by the rules of whomever you are playing with. A thief likes to play the theft game. Murders like to play the murder game. Normal people play the polite society game. Play the game that is currently being played, not the game you think everyone should be playing. Problem is that your perception of what kind of game is played might be wrong. And you treat people that don't deserve* more harshly or people that deserve* more lenient. *deserve your intended outcome