6 ms·

PSA: Stealing is illegal.

HWR_14 3y ago
PSA: Many criminals enforce 'don't steal from us' in with punishments that are more brutal and with a lower procedural protections than the state does.
- buildbuildbuild 3y ago
  Is someone depositing and withdrawing from a darknet market without transacting a criminal? Internationally? Are all buyers of substances the U.S. controls inherently “professional criminals”? Does the belief that someone is a criminal justify taking their money? (I trace cryptocurrency professionally, depositing is key to identifying clusters and it sure is nice to get the money back)
  - mteam88 3y ago
    Yes. Whitehatting is ethically fine if you actually know they are scammers.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      “Whitehatting” : new and fine as long as you know “Vigilantism” : well-established net negative for any land of law
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      If you are scamming people, even if those people are scammers, you're no white hat. You're just another scammer.
- newaccount74 3y ago
  Only if they catch you.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    I would love to see your stance substantiated by an accepted (preferable Western) law or moral code.
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  This is of course an obvious side effect of having to protect one's criminal resources from as large a potential criminal threat as the state does without the state's resources.
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    Is it an obvious side effect of limited resources? I thought it was an obvious side effect of the lack of any need or desire to maintain fairness.
    - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
      As a general rule the problems of misbehavior among criminals are not actions that in the courts would be seen as criminal matters but rather things that would be seen as civil. Despite what one sees in the movies the general problem one has is not some guys running up with masks on ripping you off of the money you made selling drugs, but rather the people you have fronted drugs to not giving you the money they owe you or the people you are buying drugs from ripping you off (using drugs because it is the most generally distributed type of organized crime but similar situations apply to other forms of organized crime) The problem then is that you have people who have taken from you, there is no system to force them to pay, you must assume the state's monopoly of violence to get what is owed or decide to write it off. If you write off too great of losses you cannot stay in business, if you write off losses too frequently you cannot stay in business, and in writing off losses you may give other people the idea that they can steal from you as well. Thus as you get to a certain level of organized crime you have to punish the people who do not fulfill the contracts they have undertaken with you. This is sometimes also described as the actual origins of the mob, because they were the guys who could enforce contracts among the various criminal factions (by using violence)
willcipriano 3y ago
PSA: Applying a consistent moral code when others refuse to do the same leaves you at a competitive disadvantage. It's better to play by the rules of whomever you are playing with. A thief likes to play the theft game. Murders like to play the murder game. Normal people play the polite society game. Play the game that is currently being played, not the game you think everyone should be playing.
- EscapeFromNY 3y ago
  If someone is buying weed on a darknet site, would you feel morally justified in stealing from them?
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    It they aren't stealing from someone then that's not the same game. A guy selling credit card numbers, given the opportunity he'd have nothing left.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > If someone is buying weed on a darknet site, would you feel morally justified in stealing from them? No, but I'd guess that GP feels morally justified in buying weed from him or selling weed to him. If the weed-buyer isn't playing the theft game, why do you believe that the GP would play the theft game?
    - EscapeFromNY 3y ago
      This is an article about darknet markets, and when I hear "darknet markets" I think of drugs. The impression I get from Bruce Schneier's blog is that other shady stuff like stealing credit cards or murder-for-hire sites (which are all fake) mostly happens on the clearnet. So it was odd to see someone make the casual jump from darknet markets to theft/murder.
      - willcipriano 3y ago
        I was thinking of sites that deal exclusively in carding, scams, fencing stolen goods, etc. If your actions have blowback on morally innocent people (ie. Technically a law was broken but it was a crime without a direct victim), inadvertently or not, you are not acting morally.
loeg 3y ago
s/PSA/Tl;dr/ (the fine article covers this, at the end)
George83728 3y ago
You're correct and the other responses you've got miss the mark. While stealing for thieves might be morally or ethically defensible (in some moral or ethical frameworks), it IS still illegal. You can go to prison for it. Your PSA is warranted. For your comment to be not just downvoted but also flagged for saying something true is a farce.

PSA: Many criminals enforce 'don't steal from us' in with punishments that are more brutal and with a lower procedural protections than the state does.

buildbuildbuild 3y ago
Is someone depositing and withdrawing from a darknet market without transacting a criminal? Internationally? Are all buyers of substances the U.S. controls inherently “professional criminals”? Does the belief that someone is a criminal justify taking their money? (I trace cryptocurrency professionally, depositing is key to identifying clusters and it sure is nice to get the money back)
- mteam88 3y ago
  Yes. Whitehatting is ethically fine if you actually know they are scammers.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    “Whitehatting” : new and fine as long as you know “Vigilantism” : well-established net negative for any land of law
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    If you are scamming people, even if those people are scammers, you're no white hat. You're just another scammer.
newaccount74 3y ago
Only if they catch you.
- dotancohen 3y ago
  I would love to see your stance substantiated by an accepted (preferable Western) law or moral code.
bryanrasmussen 3y ago
This is of course an obvious side effect of having to protect one's criminal resources from as large a potential criminal threat as the state does without the state's resources.
- HWR_14 3y ago
  Is it an obvious side effect of limited resources? I thought it was an obvious side effect of the lack of any need or desire to maintain fairness.
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
    As a general rule the problems of misbehavior among criminals are not actions that in the courts would be seen as criminal matters but rather things that would be seen as civil. Despite what one sees in the movies the general problem one has is not some guys running up with masks on ripping you off of the money you made selling drugs, but rather the people you have fronted drugs to not giving you the money they owe you or the people you are buying drugs from ripping you off (using drugs because it is the most generally distributed type of organized crime but similar situations apply to other forms of organized crime) The problem then is that you have people who have taken from you, there is no system to force them to pay, you must assume the state's monopoly of violence to get what is owed or decide to write it off. If you write off too great of losses you cannot stay in business, if you write off losses too frequently you cannot stay in business, and in writing off losses you may give other people the idea that they can steal from you as well. Thus as you get to a certain level of organized crime you have to punish the people who do not fulfill the contracts they have undertaken with you. This is sometimes also described as the actual origins of the mob, because they were the guys who could enforce contracts among the various criminal factions (by using violence)

willcipriano 3y ago

PSA: Applying a consistent moral code when others refuse to do the same leaves you at a competitive disadvantage. It's better to play by the rules of whomever you are playing with. A thief likes to play the theft game. Murders like to play the murder game. Normal people play the polite society game. Play the game that is currently being played, not the game you think everyone should be playing.

EscapeFromNY 3y ago
If someone is buying weed on a darknet site, would you feel morally justified in stealing from them?
- willcipriano 3y ago
  It they aren't stealing from someone then that's not the same game. A guy selling credit card numbers, given the opportunity he'd have nothing left.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > If someone is buying weed on a darknet site, would you feel morally justified in stealing from them? No, but I'd guess that GP feels morally justified in buying weed from him or selling weed to him. If the weed-buyer isn't playing the theft game, why do you believe that the GP would play the theft game?
  - EscapeFromNY 3y ago
    This is an article about darknet markets, and when I hear "darknet markets" I think of drugs. The impression I get from Bruce Schneier's blog is that other shady stuff like stealing credit cards or murder-for-hire sites (which are all fake) mostly happens on the clearnet. So it was odd to see someone make the casual jump from darknet markets to theft/murder.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      I was thinking of sites that deal exclusively in carding, scams, fencing stolen goods, etc. If your actions have blowback on morally innocent people (ie. Technically a law was broken but it was a crime without a direct victim), inadvertently or not, you are not acting morally.

loeg 3y ago

s/PSA/Tl;dr/ (the fine article covers this, at the end)

George83728 3y ago

You're correct and the other responses you've got miss the mark. While stealing for thieves might be morally or ethically defensible (in some moral or ethical frameworks), it IS still illegal. You can go to prison for it. Your PSA is warranted. For your comment to be not just downvoted but also flagged for saying something true is a farce.