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> If you meant abuse, you certainly could have been a lot more clearer... debok are telling me they can have a relationship with someone who is immoral and une

by geocar 3y ago

> If you meant abuse, you certainly could have been a lot more clearer... debok are telling me they can have a relationship with someone who is immoral and unethical in their opinion. Are you saying you think abuse isn't immoral or unethical?

sokoloff 3y ago
Not at all. Are you saying that abuse is the only (or even primary) thing that a kid could conceivably complain is immoral or unethical? P -> Q != Q -> P
- geocar 3y ago
  > Not at all. Then stop changing the subject. We are taking about this distressing statement: > Also, I wouldn't cut my parents off for disagreeing with me about morality or ethics, I would expect the same treatment from my kids when they are grown-ups. which certainly sounds like there isn’t a moral or ethical position their parent could have including abuse. I don’t think anyone thinks the only unethical thing in the world is abuse, and I cannot imagine what kind of a person you would have to be to think that I would mean that.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    I’ve read your replies upthread and it seems rich to suggest that I’m the one changing the subject. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36210978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36210978 Is the post where you appear to have conflated immoral/unethical with abuse and it spiraled from there as people tried to explain that to you.
    - geocar 3y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36214514 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36214514 you agreed abuse is immoral and unethical, so clearly nothing is being "conflated" except in your own mind. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36210181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36210181 is where debok says they are okay with all immoral and unethical behaviour in their family members, and that includes abuse since we both agree that abuse is (one of many things that is) immoral or unethical. Now you bring up this idea https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36214514 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36214514 that I must mean that "that abuse is the only (or even primary) thing that a kid could conceivably complain is immoral or unethical" but that's definitely not what I'm talking about; I'm saying a kid could complain about abuse, and debok says they would still maintain a relationship with that abuser because they are their parents, and that is what I think is wrong and that what you replied to. Maybe you didn't know before but now you do, and as you persist, I think it is a kindness to say you're only trying to change the subject, instead of what I really think.
lelanthran 3y ago
> debok are telling me they can have a relationship with someone who is immoral and unethical in their opinion. > Are you saying you think abuse isn't immoral or unethical? Do you think that everything that isn't moral or unethical is abuse? A moments thought should reveal that it is possible to have a relationship with someone who is immoral and unethical while not having a relationship with anyone who is an abuser.
debok 3y ago
> debok are telling me they can have a relationship with someone who is immoral and unethical in their opinion. I do that all the time. In some cases, like abuse, I consider those people to be my enemies. I consider it moral and ethical to love your enemies. So I have relationships with moral and unethical people without stamping my approval on their actions.
- geocar 3y ago
  I don't think you should encourage people (including your kids) to do that: If someone doesn't feel like they should have a relationship with someone, they shouldn't have to. I also think you should consider the context a little bit: I'm trying to tell you that if you're not on your kids' side then they're going to keep some things from you (NB emphasis: "you will lose access to a part of their life forever"), not that they're going to keep everything from you, or "cut you off completely". Did you perhaps miss that and read what I wrote a little too narrowly?

by geocar 3y ago

sokoloff 3y ago

Not at all. Are you saying that abuse is the only (or even primary) thing that a kid could conceivably complain is immoral or unethical? P -> Q != Q -> P

geocar 3y ago
> Not at all. Then stop changing the subject. We are taking about this distressing statement: > Also, I wouldn't cut my parents off for disagreeing with me about morality or ethics, I would expect the same treatment from my kids when they are grown-ups. which certainly sounds like there isn’t a moral or ethical position their parent could have including abuse. I don’t think anyone thinks the only unethical thing in the world is abuse, and I cannot imagine what kind of a person you would have to be to think that I would mean that.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I’ve read your replies upthread and it seems rich to suggest that I’m the one changing the subject. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36210978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36210978 Is the post where you appear to have conflated immoral/unethical with abuse and it spiraled from there as people tried to explain that to you.
  - geocar 3y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36214514 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36214514 you agreed abuse is immoral and unethical, so clearly nothing is being "conflated" except in your own mind. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36210181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36210181 is where debok says they are okay with all immoral and unethical behaviour in their family members, and that includes abuse since we both agree that abuse is (one of many things that is) immoral or unethical. Now you bring up this idea https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36214514 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36214514 that I must mean that "that abuse is the only (or even primary) thing that a kid could conceivably complain is immoral or unethical" but that's definitely not what I'm talking about; I'm saying a kid could complain about abuse, and debok says they would still maintain a relationship with that abuser because they are their parents, and that is what I think is wrong and that what you replied to. Maybe you didn't know before but now you do, and as you persist, I think it is a kindness to say you're only trying to change the subject, instead of what I really think.

lelanthran 3y ago

> debok are telling me they can have a relationship with someone who is immoral and unethical in their opinion. > Are you saying you think abuse isn't immoral or unethical? Do you think that everything that isn't moral or unethical is abuse? A moments thought should reveal that it is possible to have a relationship with someone who is immoral and unethical while not having a relationship with anyone who is an abuser.

debok 3y ago

> debok are telling me they can have a relationship with someone who is immoral and unethical in their opinion. I do that all the time. In some cases, like abuse, I consider those people to be my enemies. I consider it moral and ethical to love your enemies. So I have relationships with moral and unethical people without stamping my approval on their actions.

geocar 3y ago
I don't think you should encourage people (including your kids) to do that: If someone doesn't feel like they should have a relationship with someone, they shouldn't have to. I also think you should consider the context a little bit: I'm trying to tell you that if you're not on your kids' side then they're going to keep some things from you (NB emphasis: "you will lose access to a part of their life forever"), not that they're going to keep everything from you, or "cut you off completely". Did you perhaps miss that and read what I wrote a little too narrowly?