5 ms·

> So, a user is in a mixed reality or virtual reality experience, and AI models are trying to predict if you are feeling curious, mind wandering, scared, paying

> So, a user is in a mixed reality or virtual reality experience, and AI models are trying to predict if you are feeling curious, mind wandering, scared, paying attention, remembering a past experience, or some other cognitive state. And these may be inferred through measurements like eye tracking, electrical activity in the brain, heart beats and rhythms, muscle activity, blood density in the brain, blood pressure, skin conductance etc. I don't really know how I feel about this...

stby 3y ago
This quickly becomes creepy beyond my wildest imaginations. Kill it with fire, please.
- ChildOfChaos 3y ago
  Why? The more personal a device is and the closer it becomes to interfacing with who we are, the more it will need to do things like this to work, else it will just feel off.
  - seydor 3y ago
    You have emotions , the device does not. No matter how we pretend to ignore it, the ability to empathize and embody the emotions of others separates us from machines. Even if they emulate it, i know they are fake (yes, i am being a machine-racist here)
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    There's the good ol' bait-and-switch of tech industry you have to consider. New tech is promoted by emphasizing (and sometimes overstating) the humane aspects, the hypothetical applications for the benefit of the user and the society at large. In reality, these capabilities turn out to be mediocre, and those humane applications never manifest - there is no business in them. We always end up with a shitty version that's mostly useful for the most motivated players: the ones with money, that will use those tools to make even more money off the users. It's true with all new tech these days, and I'd be doubly worried when it comes to things like emotion detection. There are no good uses with strong business cases, but plenty of nefarious ones.
    - KennyBlanken 3y ago
      PC makers selling TPM to everyone: "We'll make your computer more secure!" Reality: "We'll use it to store media encryption keys, so hollywood will let us stream media to your device."
      - fsflover 3y ago
        I’m using TPM with free software and my own keys. It works fine.
  - Jevon23 3y ago
    Why do I want a device to be “personal” and “interface with who I am”?
  - lrvick 3y ago
    Except that device is not owned by you, or even accountable to the public. It is owned by a private corporation whose mission is to do whatever it takes to keep you making purchases to make stock price go up. I do not even carry a smartphone anymore and am happier for it.
  - renegat0x0 3y ago
    in 2013 Edward showed that data are used by governments. We do not see it right now, but it does not mean it does not happen. Actually I think we do not see the scale of it, because most of us are not doing anything incorrect. It is only important for our politicians. Everybody is under surveillance. It is just we do not know the effects of it.
  - croes 3y ago
    That's the kind of personal data that shouldn't be on a device with an internet connection.
  - polishdude20 3y ago
    Yes if it was a standalone device which no outside party had control over then sure. But that's not practically what any tech device has been in the last 10 years. Everything phones home. And with the amount of valuable personal data this thing could accumulate, you can be sure it will be phoning home about it all the time.
  - m4rtink 3y ago
    Fully user controlled device running only free software ? Sure, agree totally! A totally closed hardware & software combination tethered to a corporate cloud ? NO WAY IN HELL!!
    - piyh 3y ago
      Give it 30 years for the open source option to catch up.
    - astrange 3y ago
      One thing that's notable about devices that "only run free software" is that they actually don't, since people use web browsers on them, and the websites are not free software. You'd also have to never talk to another person with them, since other people are capable of manipulating your emotional state and can't be audited.
thih9 3y ago
There is more: > Other tricks to infer cognitive state involved quickly flashing visuals or sounds to a user in ways they may not perceive, and then measuring their reaction to it.
- hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
  And still, there will be people who will happily pay for it.
  - thih9 3y ago
    No guarantee that any of these will ever become part of the product though. The post is talking about past research work and about patents; Apple has lots of unused patents.
makeitdouble 3y ago
> I don't really know how I feel about this... But the headset of course does ! Otherwise, it could be interesting if as users we got access to all these measurements, for our personal use. That could open the door to many other applications that would be probably less creepy.
- viraptor 3y ago
  > could be interesting if as users we got access to all these measurements You can! It's not trivial, but not very hard either. eye tracking - OS projects getting this from a laptop camera exist and work well enough for assistive tech (i.e. it can replace your mouse today) electrical activity in the brain - there are fancy things like https://zeto-inc.com/device/ https://zeto-inc.com/device/ but there are basic options as well heart beats and rhythms, muscle activity, blood pressure, skin conductance - there's lots of cheap sensors for those
  - OJFord 3y ago
    I assume GP means that the measurements would be exposed (at some helpful level of abstraction, plus also the raw data say) by the Apple Vision.
    - viraptor 3y ago
      I know ; ) I wanted to show there are already alternatives for whose who are interested in experimenting with that data themselves (and at a fraction of the cost)
seydor 3y ago
I d think those are detectable from facial expression alone. There is also EEG as a possibility
rmm 3y ago
I wonder how much they can plug into the new “autocorrect” system in iOS? Ok user heart rate is low and at baseline, they probably were trying to say “I could give a flying duck”… Pupils dilated, heart rate racing, therefore “duck” may not be the right word..
- masklinn 3y ago
  Given Siri’s reaction when it fucks up for the 5th time in a row and you tell it to fuck off… I would not bet on it.
purple_ferret 3y ago
Think of the possibilities. -A VR show can modify the jokes in real time if they know how funny you find them. -A VR casino can offer a 'full biometrics' table for the players who really think they know how to bluff -A VR porno can have your VR GF climax at the same time as you
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  > VR GF This seems like an oxymoron. I get that it's a "virtual" girl friend which semantically qualifies the term girl friend, yet there's something immensely sad about the combination of these terms. VR sex bot seems more apt to me. It doesn't really matter and I don't mean to impose terminology on anyone; it's just an observation/reaction.
  - manquer 3y ago
    Sex bot implies sex in some form, that I don’t think is primary value of a such system even if it all available. The ability to form a connection and understand your needs perfectly and respond to that a companion is the real value Sex gets boring pretty fast . It is not that expensive to pay for in real life, a companion would be supportive, knowledgeable, empathetic and always available is very hard to pay and get or have otherwise . I don’t know why people find it sad , not everyone is able to find the perfect (or any) human partner /companion , we should be happy if we are all are able to connect to sentience does it matter if it is a human , dog or a machine ?
    - steve_adams_86 3y ago
      I'm not opposed to it under all circumstances. What worries me is that people will do it under too many circumstances and fail to engage with the real thing. That seems like a tremendous loss of social opportunity which I'd argue is already occurring with technology today.
- croes 3y ago
  Think of the possibilities - they can track what you fear - they can track what you like - they can track what enrages you Agencies will love that data.
reportgunner 3y ago
Reminds me of dreaming.

stby 3y ago

This quickly becomes creepy beyond my wildest imaginations. Kill it with fire, please.

ChildOfChaos 3y ago
Why? The more personal a device is and the closer it becomes to interfacing with who we are, the more it will need to do things like this to work, else it will just feel off.
- seydor 3y ago
  You have emotions , the device does not. No matter how we pretend to ignore it, the ability to empathize and embody the emotions of others separates us from machines. Even if they emulate it, i know they are fake (yes, i am being a machine-racist here)
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  There's the good ol' bait-and-switch of tech industry you have to consider. New tech is promoted by emphasizing (and sometimes overstating) the humane aspects, the hypothetical applications for the benefit of the user and the society at large. In reality, these capabilities turn out to be mediocre, and those humane applications never manifest - there is no business in them. We always end up with a shitty version that's mostly useful for the most motivated players: the ones with money, that will use those tools to make even more money off the users. It's true with all new tech these days, and I'd be doubly worried when it comes to things like emotion detection. There are no good uses with strong business cases, but plenty of nefarious ones.
  - KennyBlanken 3y ago
    PC makers selling TPM to everyone: "We'll make your computer more secure!" Reality: "We'll use it to store media encryption keys, so hollywood will let us stream media to your device."
    - fsflover 3y ago
      I’m using TPM with free software and my own keys. It works fine.
- Jevon23 3y ago
  Why do I want a device to be “personal” and “interface with who I am”?
- lrvick 3y ago
  Except that device is not owned by you, or even accountable to the public. It is owned by a private corporation whose mission is to do whatever it takes to keep you making purchases to make stock price go up. I do not even carry a smartphone anymore and am happier for it.
- renegat0x0 3y ago
  in 2013 Edward showed that data are used by governments. We do not see it right now, but it does not mean it does not happen. Actually I think we do not see the scale of it, because most of us are not doing anything incorrect. It is only important for our politicians. Everybody is under surveillance. It is just we do not know the effects of it.
- croes 3y ago
  That's the kind of personal data that shouldn't be on a device with an internet connection.
- polishdude20 3y ago
  Yes if it was a standalone device which no outside party had control over then sure. But that's not practically what any tech device has been in the last 10 years. Everything phones home. And with the amount of valuable personal data this thing could accumulate, you can be sure it will be phoning home about it all the time.
- m4rtink 3y ago
  Fully user controlled device running only free software ? Sure, agree totally! A totally closed hardware & software combination tethered to a corporate cloud ? NO WAY IN HELL!!
  - piyh 3y ago
    Give it 30 years for the open source option to catch up.
  - astrange 3y ago
    One thing that's notable about devices that "only run free software" is that they actually don't, since people use web browsers on them, and the websites are not free software. You'd also have to never talk to another person with them, since other people are capable of manipulating your emotional state and can't be audited.

thih9 3y ago

There is more: > Other tricks to infer cognitive state involved quickly flashing visuals or sounds to a user in ways they may not perceive, and then measuring their reaction to it.

hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
And still, there will be people who will happily pay for it.
- thih9 3y ago
  No guarantee that any of these will ever become part of the product though. The post is talking about past research work and about patents; Apple has lots of unused patents.

makeitdouble 3y ago

> I don't really know how I feel about this... But the headset of course does ! Otherwise, it could be interesting if as users we got access to all these measurements, for our personal use. That could open the door to many other applications that would be probably less creepy.

viraptor 3y ago
> could be interesting if as users we got access to all these measurements You can! It's not trivial, but not very hard either. eye tracking - OS projects getting this from a laptop camera exist and work well enough for assistive tech (i.e. it can replace your mouse today) electrical activity in the brain - there are fancy things like https://zeto-inc.com/device/ https://zeto-inc.com/device/ but there are basic options as well heart beats and rhythms, muscle activity, blood pressure, skin conductance - there's lots of cheap sensors for those
- OJFord 3y ago
  I assume GP means that the measurements would be exposed (at some helpful level of abstraction, plus also the raw data say) by the Apple Vision.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    I know ; ) I wanted to show there are already alternatives for whose who are interested in experimenting with that data themselves (and at a fraction of the cost)

seydor 3y ago

I d think those are detectable from facial expression alone. There is also EEG as a possibility

rmm 3y ago

I wonder how much they can plug into the new “autocorrect” system in iOS? Ok user heart rate is low and at baseline, they probably were trying to say “I could give a flying duck”… Pupils dilated, heart rate racing, therefore “duck” may not be the right word..

masklinn 3y ago
Given Siri’s reaction when it fucks up for the 5th time in a row and you tell it to fuck off… I would not bet on it.

purple_ferret 3y ago

Think of the possibilities. -A VR show can modify the jokes in real time if they know how funny you find them. -A VR casino can offer a 'full biometrics' table for the players who really think they know how to bluff -A VR porno can have your VR GF climax at the same time as you

steve_adams_86 3y ago
> VR GF This seems like an oxymoron. I get that it's a "virtual" girl friend which semantically qualifies the term girl friend, yet there's something immensely sad about the combination of these terms. VR sex bot seems more apt to me. It doesn't really matter and I don't mean to impose terminology on anyone; it's just an observation/reaction.
- manquer 3y ago
  Sex bot implies sex in some form, that I don’t think is primary value of a such system even if it all available. The ability to form a connection and understand your needs perfectly and respond to that a companion is the real value Sex gets boring pretty fast . It is not that expensive to pay for in real life, a companion would be supportive, knowledgeable, empathetic and always available is very hard to pay and get or have otherwise . I don’t know why people find it sad , not everyone is able to find the perfect (or any) human partner /companion , we should be happy if we are all are able to connect to sentience does it matter if it is a human , dog or a machine ?
  - steve_adams_86 3y ago
    I'm not opposed to it under all circumstances. What worries me is that people will do it under too many circumstances and fail to engage with the real thing. That seems like a tremendous loss of social opportunity which I'd argue is already occurring with technology today.
croes 3y ago
Think of the possibilities - they can track what you fear - they can track what you like - they can track what enrages you Agencies will love that data.

reportgunner 3y ago

Reminds me of dreaming.