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How will it change if they are living in a dictatorship under total Government control. If you look at the history of European workers rights many of the moveme

by thorin 3y ago

How will it change if they are living in a dictatorship under total Government control. If you look at the history of European workers rights many of the movements would not be allowed in this context. The only alternative seems to be some kind of violent revolution?

gregjor 3y ago
Have you not paid attention to Chinese economic growth over the past two decades? China has grown a substantial middle class and an economy that outpaces the USA on some measures. They already had the violent workers revolution, in 1949. The European and American labor movements from the 19th and 20th centuries got met with violence under regimes less explicitly authoritarian than China's current regime. As Marx observed a long time ago, the owners of capital don't like workers organizing and demanding fairness, regardless of the political window dressing. I'm not saying that China doesn't have problems, but the Chinese economy already has cost of labor rising to the point that Apple and other companies now look to less-developed and poorer countries. And oppression of workers can and has happened everywhere, along with terrible working conditions, surveillance, and suppression of wages. Compare to an Amazon warehouse with union-busting executives, for example. A Starbucks with a busy drive-thru looks just like a sweatshop to me, except in Thailand the workers can sit down.
- thorin 3y ago
  I don't disagree with any of that, but it's interesting to consider how China might move to be a place where like in the UK (aspirationally at least) or in Germany or Scandanavia where people might enjoy freedom, healthcare, social care etc. Americans have their own freedoms. Do we see this slowly evolving in China too or is their regime a barrier to that?
  - gregjor 3y ago
    As an American I wish I had the health care and social safety net Chinese people have. “Freedom” seems kind of nebulous and relative, and doesn’t always translate from aspirations to actual conditions. I’d prefer Denmark or Sweden but those countries don’t really want American immigrants.
    - thorin 3y ago
      Really? Interestingly, my friend just moved from UK to Norway and is learning Norwegian and now has a job in IT security. From my perspective those see to be the best countries for my kind of living, but I would struggle with the cold dark winters. It's not really a place for entrepreneurs though. America seems ok for young, healthy people, or old rich ones!

by thorin 3y ago

gregjor 3y ago

Have you not paid attention to Chinese economic growth over the past two decades? China has grown a substantial middle class and an economy that outpaces the USA on some measures. They already had the violent workers revolution, in 1949. The European and American labor movements from the 19th and 20th centuries got met with violence under regimes less explicitly authoritarian than China's current regime. As Marx observed a long time ago, the owners of capital don't like workers organizing and demanding fairness, regardless of the political window dressing. I'm not saying that China doesn't have problems, but the Chinese economy already has cost of labor rising to the point that Apple and other companies now look to less-developed and poorer countries. And oppression of workers can and has happened everywhere, along with terrible working conditions, surveillance, and suppression of wages. Compare to an Amazon warehouse with union-busting executives, for example. A Starbucks with a busy drive-thru looks just like a sweatshop to me, except in Thailand the workers can sit down.

thorin 3y ago
I don't disagree with any of that, but it's interesting to consider how China might move to be a place where like in the UK (aspirationally at least) or in Germany or Scandanavia where people might enjoy freedom, healthcare, social care etc. Americans have their own freedoms. Do we see this slowly evolving in China too or is their regime a barrier to that?
- gregjor 3y ago
  As an American I wish I had the health care and social safety net Chinese people have. “Freedom” seems kind of nebulous and relative, and doesn’t always translate from aspirations to actual conditions. I’d prefer Denmark or Sweden but those countries don’t really want American immigrants.
  - thorin 3y ago
    Really? Interestingly, my friend just moved from UK to Norway and is learning Norwegian and now has a job in IT security. From my perspective those see to be the best countries for my kind of living, but I would struggle with the cold dark winters. It's not really a place for entrepreneurs though. America seems ok for young, healthy people, or old rich ones!