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That doesn't give a blank check to do whatever you want without criticism. And if previous actions justify later actions then the US shouldn't have meddled in

That doesn't give a blank check to do whatever you want without criticism. And if previous actions justify later actions then the US shouldn't have meddled in 2014. Thus "no need" to blame Russia, the US is responsible. In reality, things are much more nuanced than that logic.

wiseowise 3y ago
[flagged]
- MrOwnPut 3y ago
  I'm not talking about the 2014 "election" that happened after the Crimea invasion. I'm talking about before all that. The 2014 coup openly supported by US and Europe that overthrew Ukraine's pro-Russian elected President. These things aren't propaganda, they are events that happened. Do you honestly believe that coup was totally organic and the US had no hand in that one (just others)? There is precedent for the US meddling in other countries and even Ukraine in 2004: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa But maybe, just maybe, the US had no hand in these "revolutions", just the Middle East and LATAM countries.
  - atdrummond 3y ago
    You’re not going to have a reasonable discussion on this topic here. The last time I brought up my personal history living and working in Donetsk and the views of my neighbors and friends, I was emailed and texted multiple times by users here to “kill myself”.
    - MrOwnPut 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - wiseowise 3y ago
      Your comment isn’t adding anything to discussion. If you have anything to say about the topic - you should say it.
      - MrOwnPut 3y ago
        [flagged]
        wiseowise 3y ago
        [flagged]
        MrOwnPut 3y ago
        It's really easy to find: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33285734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33285734 GP probably didn't want to expand because of their previous experience. Either way, you derailed the discussion more than anyone else and contributed the least, don't you think?
  - bonzini 3y ago
    What about Russia trying to kill Yanukovich's opponent (who after the failed poisoning even failed to win, despite confirmed election fraud)? The same Yanukovich that promoted European integration during the 2013-2014 campaign and then reneged on his promises once elected, thus prompting Euromaidan—it was all his doing, no need to involve US and Europe in the supposed "coup".
  - ithkuil 3y ago
    "In November 2013, a series of events started that led to his ousting as president.[10][11][12] Amid economic pressure from Russia,[13] Yanukovych retracted plans to sign an association agreement with the EU, instead choosing to accept a Russian trade deal and loan bailout. This sparked large protests by supporters of European integration, who held a wave of protests dubbed the "Euromaidan" and were met with violent reprisals from authorities. Three months later, the escalating civil unrest led to over 100 deaths[14] and culminated with Yanukovych's flight into exile in Russia.[15] Later that day, Ukrainian parliament voted to remove him from his post and schedule early elections on the grounds that he had withdrawn from his constitutional duties" So, when people don't like what their government is doing it's only because some external powers are to blame for supporting them?
    - jnsaff2 3y ago
      If anything the above quote points the "meddling" being done by russia and not the US/West. So they made it happen and when it went wrong they obv point to others. This is so classic. That some fools still fall for it is the amazing part.
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    > I'm not talking about the 2014 "election" that happened after the Crimea invasion. I'm talking about before all that. The 2014 coup openly supported by US and Europe that overthrew Ukraine's pro-Russian elected President. Neither am I, did you even read my comment? It’s a revolution, not a coup, when will you learn already? And I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. That without US and Europe Euromaidan would never succeed? Or that Euromaidan was orchestrated by US and Europe? > These things aren't propaganda, they are events that happened. Events that happened is Ukrainians CHOSE Europe. Russians CHOSE to invade in 2014 and 2022. > Do you honestly believe that coup was totally organic and the US had no hand in it? Yes. How much do you even know about history of Ukraine?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - skjoldr 3y ago
    Imagine seriously thinking that a society that had financed one of the largest militaries in the world on a partially ground-up/volunteer basis for the last nine years couldn't finance an internal revolution against a corrupt twice convicted criminal who infringed on his own campaign promises, the rights of businessmen, and human rights, and who fled to the country that had been threatening Ukraine ever since the 2003 Tuzla incident, while also keeping the Parliament running throughout the events and preserving a Constitutional majority of representatives. Nah, it's all the US, of course. Ukrainians can't do shit in their own country, except breaking the back of the second largest army in the world purely out of spite towards those who want to take away their freedoms.
ChoHag 3y ago
No it's very simple. If Russia didn't invade, Russia wouldn't be killing people and blowing up their stuff. Russia's actions are Russia's responsibility, not America's.
- jemmyw 3y ago
  Constant surprise how many pro Russian views there are from a mainly American audience on a tech website. I'm anti war, anti the US going into Iraq for example. Therefore I'm on the side of Ukraine here and we should give any support necessary for them to defend themselves. No "provocation" that happened or has been made up or imagined by Russia excuses what they're doing. There are plenty of political reasons I don't necessarily like for the west to support Ukraine, but reasons aside, outcome is aligned.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    You’d think everyone in the US can align with Ukraine on this. Peaceful orientation: Russia started it Warlike orientation: Ukraine winning this thing would defeat a major US rival Budget conscious: sending $1 to Ukraine does more to cement US hegemony than sending it to the DoD Social justice types: Russia has a horrific record on the human rights of anyone who isn’t Putin Conservatives: Ukraine, formerly part of the USSR, is trying to align itself more with the Western way of doing things and Russia is violently trying to stop them
    - lpcvoid 3y ago
      Yeah, spot on. It's incredible how many people here think they see the big truth while the "herd of sheep" is obviously way less enlightened than them. How anybody can orchestrate a pro-russian view point within this conflict is mind boggling to me.
    - KptMarchewa 3y ago
      >Conservatives: Ukraine, formerly part of the USSR, is trying to align itself more with the Western way of doing things and Russia is violently trying to stop them The biggest meme amongst conservatives now is how west all sucks. Amazing how quickly that spread. Reagan would be disgusted with traitors that calls themselves Republicans nowadays.
Tade0 3y ago
> In reality, things are much more nuanced than that logic. I hear this a lot, but living just a few hour drive from the conflict and sharing a border with Russia, my take is that the west is overthinking this. This is Russian politics which spilled over to another country. You can see it in e.g. how Prigozhin is positioning himself politically. They're trying to figure out who will lead Russia in the coming years and this invasion is used to further this goal. Of course there are other objectives, but this is the main one.
FredPret 3y ago
Interesting question. How badly does someone have to behave before you feel you have a moral blank cheque in stopping them. I think starting a war counts.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > How badly does someone have to behave before you feel you have a moral blank cheque in stopping them. No such point? I don't think you processed what a "moral blank cheque" means.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    MrOwnPut: >That doesn't give a blank check to do whatever you want without criticism. FredPret >moral blank cheque Read more

wiseowise 3y ago

[flagged]

MrOwnPut 3y ago
I'm not talking about the 2014 "election" that happened after the Crimea invasion. I'm talking about before all that. The 2014 coup openly supported by US and Europe that overthrew Ukraine's pro-Russian elected President. These things aren't propaganda, they are events that happened. Do you honestly believe that coup was totally organic and the US had no hand in that one (just others)? There is precedent for the US meddling in other countries and even Ukraine in 2004: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa But maybe, just maybe, the US had no hand in these "revolutions", just the Middle East and LATAM countries.
- atdrummond 3y ago
  You’re not going to have a reasonable discussion on this topic here. The last time I brought up my personal history living and working in Donetsk and the views of my neighbors and friends, I was emailed and texted multiple times by users here to “kill myself”.
  - MrOwnPut 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    Your comment isn’t adding anything to discussion. If you have anything to say about the topic - you should say it.
    - MrOwnPut 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - wiseowise 3y ago
        [flagged]
        MrOwnPut 3y ago
        It's really easy to find: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33285734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33285734 GP probably didn't want to expand because of their previous experience. Either way, you derailed the discussion more than anyone else and contributed the least, don't you think?
- bonzini 3y ago
  What about Russia trying to kill Yanukovich's opponent (who after the failed poisoning even failed to win, despite confirmed election fraud)? The same Yanukovich that promoted European integration during the 2013-2014 campaign and then reneged on his promises once elected, thus prompting Euromaidan—it was all his doing, no need to involve US and Europe in the supposed "coup".
- ithkuil 3y ago
  "In November 2013, a series of events started that led to his ousting as president.[10][11][12] Amid economic pressure from Russia,[13] Yanukovych retracted plans to sign an association agreement with the EU, instead choosing to accept a Russian trade deal and loan bailout. This sparked large protests by supporters of European integration, who held a wave of protests dubbed the "Euromaidan" and were met with violent reprisals from authorities. Three months later, the escalating civil unrest led to over 100 deaths[14] and culminated with Yanukovych's flight into exile in Russia.[15] Later that day, Ukrainian parliament voted to remove him from his post and schedule early elections on the grounds that he had withdrawn from his constitutional duties" So, when people don't like what their government is doing it's only because some external powers are to blame for supporting them?
  - jnsaff2 3y ago
    If anything the above quote points the "meddling" being done by russia and not the US/West. So they made it happen and when it went wrong they obv point to others. This is so classic. That some fools still fall for it is the amazing part.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  > I'm not talking about the 2014 "election" that happened after the Crimea invasion. I'm talking about before all that. The 2014 coup openly supported by US and Europe that overthrew Ukraine's pro-Russian elected President. Neither am I, did you even read my comment? It’s a revolution, not a coup, when will you learn already? And I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. That without US and Europe Euromaidan would never succeed? Or that Euromaidan was orchestrated by US and Europe? > These things aren't propaganda, they are events that happened. Events that happened is Ukrainians CHOSE Europe. Russians CHOSE to invade in 2014 and 2022. > Do you honestly believe that coup was totally organic and the US had no hand in it? Yes. How much do you even know about history of Ukraine?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- skjoldr 3y ago
  Imagine seriously thinking that a society that had financed one of the largest militaries in the world on a partially ground-up/volunteer basis for the last nine years couldn't finance an internal revolution against a corrupt twice convicted criminal who infringed on his own campaign promises, the rights of businessmen, and human rights, and who fled to the country that had been threatening Ukraine ever since the 2003 Tuzla incident, while also keeping the Parliament running throughout the events and preserving a Constitutional majority of representatives. Nah, it's all the US, of course. Ukrainians can't do shit in their own country, except breaking the back of the second largest army in the world purely out of spite towards those who want to take away their freedoms.

ChoHag 3y ago

No it's very simple. If Russia didn't invade, Russia wouldn't be killing people and blowing up their stuff. Russia's actions are Russia's responsibility, not America's.

jemmyw 3y ago
Constant surprise how many pro Russian views there are from a mainly American audience on a tech website. I'm anti war, anti the US going into Iraq for example. Therefore I'm on the side of Ukraine here and we should give any support necessary for them to defend themselves. No "provocation" that happened or has been made up or imagined by Russia excuses what they're doing. There are plenty of political reasons I don't necessarily like for the west to support Ukraine, but reasons aside, outcome is aligned.
- FredPret 3y ago
  You’d think everyone in the US can align with Ukraine on this. Peaceful orientation: Russia started it Warlike orientation: Ukraine winning this thing would defeat a major US rival Budget conscious: sending $1 to Ukraine does more to cement US hegemony than sending it to the DoD Social justice types: Russia has a horrific record on the human rights of anyone who isn’t Putin Conservatives: Ukraine, formerly part of the USSR, is trying to align itself more with the Western way of doing things and Russia is violently trying to stop them
  - lpcvoid 3y ago
    Yeah, spot on. It's incredible how many people here think they see the big truth while the "herd of sheep" is obviously way less enlightened than them. How anybody can orchestrate a pro-russian view point within this conflict is mind boggling to me.
  - KptMarchewa 3y ago
    >Conservatives: Ukraine, formerly part of the USSR, is trying to align itself more with the Western way of doing things and Russia is violently trying to stop them The biggest meme amongst conservatives now is how west all sucks. Amazing how quickly that spread. Reagan would be disgusted with traitors that calls themselves Republicans nowadays.

Tade0 3y ago

> In reality, things are much more nuanced than that logic. I hear this a lot, but living just a few hour drive from the conflict and sharing a border with Russia, my take is that the west is overthinking this. This is Russian politics which spilled over to another country. You can see it in e.g. how Prigozhin is positioning himself politically. They're trying to figure out who will lead Russia in the coming years and this invasion is used to further this goal. Of course there are other objectives, but this is the main one.

FredPret 3y ago

Interesting question. How badly does someone have to behave before you feel you have a moral blank cheque in stopping them. I think starting a war counts.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
> How badly does someone have to behave before you feel you have a moral blank cheque in stopping them. No such point? I don't think you processed what a "moral blank cheque" means.
- FredPret 3y ago
  MrOwnPut: >That doesn't give a blank check to do whatever you want without criticism. FredPret >moral blank cheque Read more