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> We’ve recently completed a trial involving hour long sessions in extended DMT state That's fascinating, since that's not something someone could do on their

by kbd 3y ago

> We’ve recently completed a trial involving hour long sessions in extended DMT state That's fascinating, since that's not something someone could do on their own. One of my biggest questions is whether the "DMT world" really connects you with another part of reality, or whether it's just "what the brain does" when exposed to the chemical. Have there been any controlled experiments on whether we can pass messages via the DMT elves? That would persuade me that the entities could be real.

_yb2s 3y ago
https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-the-cactus-person/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-th...
grimgrin 3y ago
If that’s a thing you wanna try to stay informed about, look no further than the recent conversation with the panelist: https://www.youtube.com/live/Myq_Hc_39aI https://www.youtube.com/live/Myq_Hc_39aI spoiler: we haven’t done that yet, so far it’s really kinda like “ok well it’s not appearing to be unhealthy, there’s no noticeable tolerance, what’s next”. Also the linked video is going to have parts way out there for some folks here. Some have much different beliefs, there’s a few mentions of Syncronicities But this is a newer rabbit hole for me and one thing is certain: I want to know why DMT has our brain building an entirely different world model, almost repeatable, completely throwing ours away. What’s the evolutionary reason even? There’s some theories but none anyone feels great about.
- aftoprokrustes 3y ago
  Do you have any references about this "repeatability"? Is it repeatable for a given person, or across persons?
travisjungroth 3y ago
I’ve looked a bit and haven’t seen any experiments at all. If by control you mean control group, there’s no need for that. If even a single pair of people could pass messages in a way that’s inexplicable except for the DMT realm, having another group bomb the test doesn’t change anything. I don’t think it’ll ever happen though. I have this belief that something prevents these things getting pinned down by empiricism. Like if you’re caught trying to prove it, the signal gets jammed. Yes, this makes it unfalsifiable. I’ll respect anyone who loses interest for that reason. Unfalsifiable isn’t quite the same as false, though. Most experiments around actually interacting with entities seem incredibly naive. Like imagine I told you I had a friend who makes the most amazing animal impressions in the world, but he lives in a dangerous neighborhood. One person refuses to go because it’s hazardous, and declares he’s not real. Another walks in, shoves a tape recorder in his face and says “bark like a dog for 10 seconds”. He analyzes the recording and declares it a 0% match. (It was a 100% match for a human saying “piss off” though). But you keep hearing these stories about people who show up, ask nicely, and get to hear the cool animal sounds.
- aftoprokrustes 3y ago
  Regarding the possibility to do "experiments" or the usefulness of standard materialist epistemology to study consciousness, I recommend reading the galileo report: https://galileocommission.org/report/ https://galileocommission.org/report/ It is a report from scientists worldwide, that calls for opening the field of what is considered "acceptable science" when studying consciousness. They mostly center their arguments around near death experiences and recall of past lives, but I think their arguments apply here. What I got from them is that there is room to include more first person experiences in scientific research. We might never reach the same degree of certitude and precision as in the material sciences, but thsre is a strong argument to be made that consciousness is likely not just emerging from matter, but might be of a different nature. Continuing research about how could consciousness emerge from material processes is legitimate and important, but it should not be seen as the only possible explanation, and researchers should not be shamed out of making wildly different assumptions (as long as they are rigorous and honest). I am curious to see what will come out of this DMTx project. I am not yet sure what to think about them from their website, but I will definitely try to remember to check them out again in the future!

by kbd 3y ago

_yb2s 3y ago

https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-the-cactus-person/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-th...

grimgrin 3y ago

If that’s a thing you wanna try to stay informed about, look no further than the recent conversation with the panelist: https://www.youtube.com/live/Myq_Hc_39aI https://www.youtube.com/live/Myq_Hc_39aI spoiler: we haven’t done that yet, so far it’s really kinda like “ok well it’s not appearing to be unhealthy, there’s no noticeable tolerance, what’s next”. Also the linked video is going to have parts way out there for some folks here. Some have much different beliefs, there’s a few mentions of Syncronicities But this is a newer rabbit hole for me and one thing is certain: I want to know why DMT has our brain building an entirely different world model, almost repeatable, completely throwing ours away. What’s the evolutionary reason even? There’s some theories but none anyone feels great about.

aftoprokrustes 3y ago
Do you have any references about this "repeatability"? Is it repeatable for a given person, or across persons?

travisjungroth 3y ago

I’ve looked a bit and haven’t seen any experiments at all. If by control you mean control group, there’s no need for that. If even a single pair of people could pass messages in a way that’s inexplicable except for the DMT realm, having another group bomb the test doesn’t change anything. I don’t think it’ll ever happen though. I have this belief that something prevents these things getting pinned down by empiricism. Like if you’re caught trying to prove it, the signal gets jammed. Yes, this makes it unfalsifiable. I’ll respect anyone who loses interest for that reason. Unfalsifiable isn’t quite the same as false, though. Most experiments around actually interacting with entities seem incredibly naive. Like imagine I told you I had a friend who makes the most amazing animal impressions in the world, but he lives in a dangerous neighborhood. One person refuses to go because it’s hazardous, and declares he’s not real. Another walks in, shoves a tape recorder in his face and says “bark like a dog for 10 seconds”. He analyzes the recording and declares it a 0% match. (It was a 100% match for a human saying “piss off” though). But you keep hearing these stories about people who show up, ask nicely, and get to hear the cool animal sounds.

aftoprokrustes 3y ago
Regarding the possibility to do "experiments" or the usefulness of standard materialist epistemology to study consciousness, I recommend reading the galileo report: https://galileocommission.org/report/ https://galileocommission.org/report/ It is a report from scientists worldwide, that calls for opening the field of what is considered "acceptable science" when studying consciousness. They mostly center their arguments around near death experiences and recall of past lives, but I think their arguments apply here. What I got from them is that there is room to include more first person experiences in scientific research. We might never reach the same degree of certitude and precision as in the material sciences, but thsre is a strong argument to be made that consciousness is likely not just emerging from matter, but might be of a different nature. Continuing research about how could consciousness emerge from material processes is legitimate and important, but it should not be seen as the only possible explanation, and researchers should not be shamed out of making wildly different assumptions (as long as they are rigorous and honest). I am curious to see what will come out of this DMTx project. I am not yet sure what to think about them from their website, but I will definitely try to remember to check them out again in the future!