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>> I have tried to understand how I could use ChatGPT for programming and, unlike Welsh, found almost nothing. Errr..... how can this guy say all this in the f

>> I have tried to understand how I could use ChatGPT for programming and, unlike Welsh, found almost nothing. Errr..... how can this guy say all this in the face of thousands of developers talking about how AI helps them, about AI copilots being built that demonstrably assist programming. My personal experience being that AI has turned programming into a completely different process. What does this say about the author, that they can argue a point so obviously wrong?

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JohnFen 3y ago
I don't know that it's obviously wrong. I know a handful of devs that have been using LLMs as part of their development process. About half of them have seen some increased productivity from doing so (none of them produce better code). So it appears to me that neither the ones claiming that AI helps them, nor those saying it doesn't, are wrong. Not everyone finds AI to be helpful when coding.
- williamcotton 3y ago
  AI Does Not Help Programmers Is much different than your observation: About half of them have seen some increased productivity from doing so Isn’t there an obvious difference?
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Sure there is, but that's not the part we were discussing. I was replying to a comment about a specific line of the essay.
flusensieb 3y ago
Errr... I think there are a thousand developers talking about how AI doesn't help them, so I don't think that's a good argument. My personal experience is: - Writing some boilerplate/copy-paste testing code might turn out fine, but I still need to check it and that takes more mental effort than to just copy-paste-adapt with well-known keyboard shortcuts. - Writing business-relevant production code that is readable, maintainable and concise: Forget AI (at least for now). On good days I try to use and adapt to LLM-generated code, but at the end of the day, when I have to get things done I turn them off: It's easier to reflect and build a complex system without someone constantly "trying" to bullshit you... After all the LLM does not (yet?) know about all the details, the why and all other things that produce something readable, correct and concise.
- andrewstuart 3y ago
  If a programmer can get no value from AI then they aren't trying hard enough, or they are dramatically overvaluing their capabilities. I wouldn't hire a programmer who said they don't use AI because it doesn't help them.
  - flusensieb 3y ago
    There's a little gap between a programmer saying he "gets no value" from AI and "turning programming into a completely different process". I'm sure AI will close that gap ;)
  - gregjor 3y ago
    My grandmother -- a talented chef -- refused to eat fast food or frozen meals. Perhaps she overvalued her capabilities or didn't try hard enough. I don't use "AI" to help me write code, it doesn't help me enough to offset the constant context switching, and then having to double-check what it spits out. For the same reason, I don't have a junior-level human assistant to pair with because that would slow me down. Thanks for the heads-up, so those of us not getting enough value out of "AI" (about half according to the other comments) know not to apply. I have worked for plenty of managers and executives who can't write a memo or a spec as well as ChatGPT, I suspect those jobs will go to "AI" before my prospects dry up.
  - dinvlad 3y ago
    Sometimes people mistake convenience for something being good for them. I can conveniently do so many things in life without having to figure them out by myself, and they may indeed save me time and effort. Doesn’t mean it’s good for me or improves my own value proposition.

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JohnFen 3y ago

I don't know that it's obviously wrong. I know a handful of devs that have been using LLMs as part of their development process. About half of them have seen some increased productivity from doing so (none of them produce better code). So it appears to me that neither the ones claiming that AI helps them, nor those saying it doesn't, are wrong. Not everyone finds AI to be helpful when coding.

williamcotton 3y ago
AI Does Not Help Programmers Is much different than your observation: About half of them have seen some increased productivity from doing so Isn’t there an obvious difference?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Sure there is, but that's not the part we were discussing. I was replying to a comment about a specific line of the essay.

flusensieb 3y ago

Errr... I think there are a thousand developers talking about how AI doesn't help them, so I don't think that's a good argument. My personal experience is: - Writing some boilerplate/copy-paste testing code might turn out fine, but I still need to check it and that takes more mental effort than to just copy-paste-adapt with well-known keyboard shortcuts. - Writing business-relevant production code that is readable, maintainable and concise: Forget AI (at least for now). On good days I try to use and adapt to LLM-generated code, but at the end of the day, when I have to get things done I turn them off: It's easier to reflect and build a complex system without someone constantly "trying" to bullshit you... After all the LLM does not (yet?) know about all the details, the why and all other things that produce something readable, correct and concise.

andrewstuart 3y ago
If a programmer can get no value from AI then they aren't trying hard enough, or they are dramatically overvaluing their capabilities. I wouldn't hire a programmer who said they don't use AI because it doesn't help them.
- flusensieb 3y ago
  There's a little gap between a programmer saying he "gets no value" from AI and "turning programming into a completely different process". I'm sure AI will close that gap ;)
- gregjor 3y ago
  My grandmother -- a talented chef -- refused to eat fast food or frozen meals. Perhaps she overvalued her capabilities or didn't try hard enough. I don't use "AI" to help me write code, it doesn't help me enough to offset the constant context switching, and then having to double-check what it spits out. For the same reason, I don't have a junior-level human assistant to pair with because that would slow me down. Thanks for the heads-up, so those of us not getting enough value out of "AI" (about half according to the other comments) know not to apply. I have worked for plenty of managers and executives who can't write a memo or a spec as well as ChatGPT, I suspect those jobs will go to "AI" before my prospects dry up.
- dinvlad 3y ago
  Sometimes people mistake convenience for something being good for them. I can conveniently do so many things in life without having to figure them out by myself, and they may indeed save me time and effort. Doesn’t mean it’s good for me or improves my own value proposition.