13 ms·

Licensee Hit with $24,000 Fine for Jamming Net, Failure to ID

44 points by 7402 3y ago

amingilani 3y ago
I can't recall a prior instance when the FCC (or any other regulator) fined a ham for interfering with amateur radio activities. Pretty cool to see! 73 VE3EQL
- MandieD 3y ago
  Non-hams when they see an FCC enforcement action against a ham behaving badly (a “lid”): “isn’t that a bit much? Maybe it was an honest mistake…” Hams: “Good, serves him right. Jerk knew exactly what he was doing.” (and anyone with a US 1x3 callsign is hardly a newb who just got their Technician license) 73, KI5UKQ / DL4AD
  - 1827163 3y ago
    Absolutely ridiculous. That makes me want nothing to do with the hobby, period. These hams are behaving like animals with a dominance hierarchy. With "newbs" and status in that hierarchy based on license class / callsign. And reacting aggressively, completely out of proportion, to outsiders who intrude on their territory. Akin to a dog with behavioral issues. This attitude in amateur radio is so common, we are supposed to be better than that. Many years ago I built a high voltage power supply to drive a metal halide or sodium lamp from batteries, and one of my coworkers who was a radio ham, was threatening me that I could get fined thousands for interfering with amateur radio. That was my direct experience, and I have heard this kind of thing happening so many times to others. It's always the hams making the bulk of complaints to the authorities, as well. And if I remember correctly it's actually tying up FCC resources...
    - rolph 3y ago
      i was a member of a ham club for a brief span. you are describing many of the reasons i walked away and went solo.
      - 1827163 3y ago
        Makes you want to use powerline Ethernet for everything, which happens to stomp on the HF radio bands. Perfectly legal to install and use, a nice replacement for all those trailing cables. Yes, civil disobedience is how these draconian rules get changed, assuming everyone does it. Notice ham antennas down the road? Then get some powerline Ethernet adapters, ensure they are fully regulatory approved for the country you are in. And that is perfectly legal civil disobedience too, which is likely to cause utter hell for that amateur operator, who likely supports this draconian punishment for such a trivial matter.
        1827163 3y ago
        Even better if some product came onto the market, that used wideband powerline communications for its functioning, and practically everyone's got one. I think some electric car chargers might do so in the future. That would not go down well with amateurs, at all! When everyone down the street would have, in effect, legal jammers. MaxLinear have some nice ones, complete with datasheet, it also works in MIMO mode, not for just powerline but pretty much anywhere. https://www.maxlinear.com/document/index?id=23257&languageid=1033&type=Datasheet&partnumber=88LX5152&filename=88LX5152_88LX5153.pdf&part=88LX5152 https://www.maxlinear.com/document/index?id=23257&languageid... Update: I think solar inverters are causing big problems here already, so it's only a matter of time now as they become increasingly popular. So we can kiss those amateur radio enthusiasts and their utterly draconian punishments goodbye in the long term. https://hfdxarc.com/technical-pages/how-to-reduce-electromagnetic-interference-in-solar-power-systems/ https://hfdxarc.com/technical-pages/how-to-reduce-electromag... https://www.pa9x.com/how-the-replacement-of-solar-panel-micro-inverters-lead-to-50-db-less-qrm/ https://www.pa9x.com/how-the-replacement-of-solar-panel-micr...
        1827163 3y ago
        It's been like this already, for quite some time (!), at lest here in the UK, VDSL2 to thank for that: https://rsgb.org/main/technical/emc/vdsl-interference-reporting/ https://rsgb.org/main/technical/emc/vdsl-interference-report... So it's already being jammed, with the noise floor going up, although not to the point of being unusable.
- curiousfab 3y ago
  There were many such cases in the past. https://www.arrl.org/news/glenn-baxter-ex-k1man-sk-engaged-in-protracted-enforcement-battle-with-fcc https://www.arrl.org/news/glenn-baxter-ex-k1man-sk-engaged-i... https://www.arrl.org/news/radio-amateur-to-pay-7-000-face-restricted-privileges-to-settle-fcc-interference-case https://www.arrl.org/news/radio-amateur-to-pay-7-000-face-re... https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-15-1375A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-15-1375A1.pdf
pajko 3y ago
Maybe they got lost? That's valid use in EU, but not in US. From Wikipedia: "The upper portion of the band, which is usually used for phone (voice), is sometimes referred to as 75 meters. In Europe, 75m is a shortwave broadcast band, with a number of national radio services operating between 3.9 and 4.0 MHz." "The European 75 m broadcast band overlaps the North American 80 m ham band allocation. When it is night on both ends of the transmission path some broadcasters in Asia and Europe can be heard in North America between 3.9 and 4.0 MHz"
- MandieD 3y ago
  A big part of amateur radio operations is knowing what the allowable frequencies are for where you are - when I first put the “DL” (for Germany) ahead of my US callsign, it was a) to let everyone else know I was operating in Germany, and b) to acknowledge that I knew what the rules were for operating in Germany. “Don’t play music over amateur radio” is another big one that is literally a question on the Technician (entry-level) license exam. Also, broadcasting (transmissions intended to be listened to by non-hams) under an amateur license is illegal in ordinary conditions. That’s what broadcasting licenses are for. And trying to bump people off a frequency is considered the height of jerk behavior. So, good for the FCC, an excellent use of our license fees.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
schoolornot 3y ago
So are the FCC able to levy whatever fine they'd like?
- toss1 3y ago
  No, they are constrained by the laws that authorize their existence and activity. Better to look those up and call your congress rep if you don't like it than make random unfounded "govmnt bad" accusations, but those do seem to be all the rage these days.
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
1827163 3y ago
I don't think such a huge fine is justified, how about confiscating his equipment, and banning him from using radio equipment capable of transmitting on amateur frequencies for a period of time? It didn't cause any harm to emergency services, or disrupt anything other than a hobby. Fining him such a large amount for disrupting a hobby is ridiculous. And it makes me want nothing to do with amateur radio, and stick to unlicensed bands only. The guy fined likely has children, a family to raise, which are all much more important than someone's hobby. You cannot impose such financial hardship for essentially what is trolling someone, on the radio. It's ridiculous. Draconian penalties may only encourage miscreants to disrespect amateur radio, in an act of rebellion? And those miscreants might be able to get away with jamming it legally, by using powerline Ethernet adaptors, which will typically cause interference for the whole neighborhood. There's no law saying you can't have a really long piece of electrical wiring in your home, with absolutely nothing connected to it at the end? http://gm4fvm.blogspot.com/2018/06/power-line-adapter-noise-interference.html http://gm4fvm.blogspot.com/2018/06/power-line-adapter-noise-... Maybe we non-amateurs should lobby the government to open up the VHF/UHF amateur bands for unlicensed operation at low power, just like 2.4GHz, and consign this hobby to the dustbin of history? How about getting industry involved in the lobbying as well? Can we find any good commercial use cases for those bands? In Europe we can already use a large part of the 70cm band (433MHz) at low power levels. The radio spectrum is supposed to belong to all of us? Not just a privileged few who possess a license, and are so willing to punish others so excessively for relatively minor infractions?
- kordlessagain 3y ago
  He's older and was charged in 2016 for something similar: https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2003/DOC-340363A1.html https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2003/DOC-340363A1...
  - 1827163 3y ago
    For playing music 5 years ago, that is still disproportionate, no emergency frequencies were disrupted, in any of his activities. Did he cause any quantifiable harm here? Did the harm he cause ever justify that degree of punishment? My stance is no in both cases. What is concerning to me is that some ham had to make the complaint there, maybe fully knowing the FCC would hand out a very large fine, causing him severe disruption to his family and childrens' lives, that far exceeds the nuisance caused by playing music on the radio. Thus the ham that made the complaint is perhaps morally culpable in the excessive punishment. He acted, in conjunction with the state, to ruin this guy's (and his family's) life there. It doesn't matter if it's legal to do so, it is still morally wrong. Fining the guy obviously causes him extreme stress, which he might end up taking out on his spouse or children afterwards, which far, far exceeds the harm from playing music on amateur radio bands. So the disproportionate punishment has knock on effects in society. And these draconian measure are what so many hams find acceptable? I'm sure the general public doesn't though.
floor_ 3y ago
A few years ago I wanted to get a ham radio license to do real time tracking with with a high altitude balloon after seeing tons of amateurs doing it. I couldn't imagine a worse time to do it than now with the Chinese spy balloon nonsense. Even back then they had to label the camera payload box with things like "THIS ISN'T A BOMB please call ###".

44 points by 7402 3y ago

I can't recall a prior instance when the FCC (or any other regulator) fined a ham for interfering with amateur radio activities. Pretty cool to see! 73 VE3EQL

MandieD 3y ago
Non-hams when they see an FCC enforcement action against a ham behaving badly (a “lid”): “isn’t that a bit much? Maybe it was an honest mistake…” Hams: “Good, serves him right. Jerk knew exactly what he was doing.” (and anyone with a US 1x3 callsign is hardly a newb who just got their Technician license) 73, KI5UKQ / DL4AD
- 1827163 3y ago
  Absolutely ridiculous. That makes me want nothing to do with the hobby, period. These hams are behaving like animals with a dominance hierarchy. With "newbs" and status in that hierarchy based on license class / callsign. And reacting aggressively, completely out of proportion, to outsiders who intrude on their territory. Akin to a dog with behavioral issues. This attitude in amateur radio is so common, we are supposed to be better than that. Many years ago I built a high voltage power supply to drive a metal halide or sodium lamp from batteries, and one of my coworkers who was a radio ham, was threatening me that I could get fined thousands for interfering with amateur radio. That was my direct experience, and I have heard this kind of thing happening so many times to others. It's always the hams making the bulk of complaints to the authorities, as well. And if I remember correctly it's actually tying up FCC resources...
  - rolph 3y ago
    i was a member of a ham club for a brief span. you are describing many of the reasons i walked away and went solo.
    - 1827163 3y ago
      Makes you want to use powerline Ethernet for everything, which happens to stomp on the HF radio bands. Perfectly legal to install and use, a nice replacement for all those trailing cables. Yes, civil disobedience is how these draconian rules get changed, assuming everyone does it. Notice ham antennas down the road? Then get some powerline Ethernet adapters, ensure they are fully regulatory approved for the country you are in. And that is perfectly legal civil disobedience too, which is likely to cause utter hell for that amateur operator, who likely supports this draconian punishment for such a trivial matter.
      - 1827163 3y ago
        Even better if some product came onto the market, that used wideband powerline communications for its functioning, and practically everyone's got one. I think some electric car chargers might do so in the future. That would not go down well with amateurs, at all! When everyone down the street would have, in effect, legal jammers. MaxLinear have some nice ones, complete with datasheet, it also works in MIMO mode, not for just powerline but pretty much anywhere. https://www.maxlinear.com/document/index?id=23257&languageid=1033&type=Datasheet&partnumber=88LX5152&filename=88LX5152_88LX5153.pdf&part=88LX5152 https://www.maxlinear.com/document/index?id=23257&languageid... Update: I think solar inverters are causing big problems here already, so it's only a matter of time now as they become increasingly popular. So we can kiss those amateur radio enthusiasts and their utterly draconian punishments goodbye in the long term. https://hfdxarc.com/technical-pages/how-to-reduce-electromagnetic-interference-in-solar-power-systems/ https://hfdxarc.com/technical-pages/how-to-reduce-electromag... https://www.pa9x.com/how-the-replacement-of-solar-panel-micro-inverters-lead-to-50-db-less-qrm/ https://www.pa9x.com/how-the-replacement-of-solar-panel-micr...
        1827163 3y ago
        It's been like this already, for quite some time (!), at lest here in the UK, VDSL2 to thank for that: https://rsgb.org/main/technical/emc/vdsl-interference-reporting/ https://rsgb.org/main/technical/emc/vdsl-interference-report... So it's already being jammed, with the noise floor going up, although not to the point of being unusable.
curiousfab 3y ago
There were many such cases in the past. https://www.arrl.org/news/glenn-baxter-ex-k1man-sk-engaged-in-protracted-enforcement-battle-with-fcc https://www.arrl.org/news/glenn-baxter-ex-k1man-sk-engaged-i... https://www.arrl.org/news/radio-amateur-to-pay-7-000-face-restricted-privileges-to-settle-fcc-interference-case https://www.arrl.org/news/radio-amateur-to-pay-7-000-face-re... https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-15-1375A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-15-1375A1.pdf

pajko 3y ago

Maybe they got lost? That's valid use in EU, but not in US. From Wikipedia: "The upper portion of the band, which is usually used for phone (voice), is sometimes referred to as 75 meters. In Europe, 75m is a shortwave broadcast band, with a number of national radio services operating between 3.9 and 4.0 MHz." "The European 75 m broadcast band overlaps the North American 80 m ham band allocation. When it is night on both ends of the transmission path some broadcasters in Asia and Europe can be heard in North America between 3.9 and 4.0 MHz"

MandieD 3y ago
A big part of amateur radio operations is knowing what the allowable frequencies are for where you are - when I first put the “DL” (for Germany) ahead of my US callsign, it was a) to let everyone else know I was operating in Germany, and b) to acknowledge that I knew what the rules were for operating in Germany. “Don’t play music over amateur radio” is another big one that is literally a question on the Technician (entry-level) license exam. Also, broadcasting (transmissions intended to be listened to by non-hams) under an amateur license is illegal in ordinary conditions. That’s what broadcasting licenses are for. And trying to bump people off a frequency is considered the height of jerk behavior. So, good for the FCC, an excellent use of our license fees.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

schoolornot 3y ago

So are the FCC able to levy whatever fine they'd like?

toss1 3y ago
No, they are constrained by the laws that authorize their existence and activity. Better to look those up and call your congress rep if you don't like it than make random unfounded "govmnt bad" accusations, but those do seem to be all the rage these days.

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]

1827163 3y ago

I don't think such a huge fine is justified, how about confiscating his equipment, and banning him from using radio equipment capable of transmitting on amateur frequencies for a period of time? It didn't cause any harm to emergency services, or disrupt anything other than a hobby. Fining him such a large amount for disrupting a hobby is ridiculous. And it makes me want nothing to do with amateur radio, and stick to unlicensed bands only. The guy fined likely has children, a family to raise, which are all much more important than someone's hobby. You cannot impose such financial hardship for essentially what is trolling someone, on the radio. It's ridiculous. Draconian penalties may only encourage miscreants to disrespect amateur radio, in an act of rebellion? And those miscreants might be able to get away with jamming it legally, by using powerline Ethernet adaptors, which will typically cause interference for the whole neighborhood. There's no law saying you can't have a really long piece of electrical wiring in your home, with absolutely nothing connected to it at the end? http://gm4fvm.blogspot.com/2018/06/power-line-adapter-noise-interference.html http://gm4fvm.blogspot.com/2018/06/power-line-adapter-noise-... Maybe we non-amateurs should lobby the government to open up the VHF/UHF amateur bands for unlicensed operation at low power, just like 2.4GHz, and consign this hobby to the dustbin of history? How about getting industry involved in the lobbying as well? Can we find any good commercial use cases for those bands? In Europe we can already use a large part of the 70cm band (433MHz) at low power levels. The radio spectrum is supposed to belong to all of us? Not just a privileged few who possess a license, and are so willing to punish others so excessively for relatively minor infractions?

kordlessagain 3y ago
He's older and was charged in 2016 for something similar: https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2003/DOC-340363A1.html https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2003/DOC-340363A1...
- 1827163 3y ago
  For playing music 5 years ago, that is still disproportionate, no emergency frequencies were disrupted, in any of his activities. Did he cause any quantifiable harm here? Did the harm he cause ever justify that degree of punishment? My stance is no in both cases. What is concerning to me is that some ham had to make the complaint there, maybe fully knowing the FCC would hand out a very large fine, causing him severe disruption to his family and childrens' lives, that far exceeds the nuisance caused by playing music on the radio. Thus the ham that made the complaint is perhaps morally culpable in the excessive punishment. He acted, in conjunction with the state, to ruin this guy's (and his family's) life there. It doesn't matter if it's legal to do so, it is still morally wrong. Fining the guy obviously causes him extreme stress, which he might end up taking out on his spouse or children afterwards, which far, far exceeds the harm from playing music on amateur radio bands. So the disproportionate punishment has knock on effects in society. And these draconian measure are what so many hams find acceptable? I'm sure the general public doesn't though.

floor_ 3y ago

A few years ago I wanted to get a ham radio license to do real time tracking with with a high altitude balloon after seeing tons of amateurs doing it. I couldn't imagine a worse time to do it than now with the Chinese spy balloon nonsense. Even back then they had to label the camera payload box with things like "THIS ISN'T A BOMB please call ###".