7 ms·

I don’t care about games at all. Have never put on a VR headset. But I will likely pre-order Vision for a better productivity workflow. Apple will get the OS ri

I don’t care about games at all. Have never put on a VR headset. But I will likely pre-order Vision for a better productivity workflow. Apple will get the OS right, whereas Meta never had a chance.

mrguyorama 3y ago
Oh good, just wait until you get regular headaches from attempting to decipher the text on your virtual screen. It works terribly. VR is an awful, desperate, not fit for purpose replacement for even a single 1080p monitor.
- bl0rg 3y ago
  May I ask which headsets you've tried? I was stunned by the visual clarity of even a Pico 4, and I expect the vision pro to be far clearer.
  - vGPU 3y ago
    I have a vive pro 2. Text is unreadable. Absolutely terrible lenses.
    - ericd 3y ago
      Do you think that comparing HTC to Apple might be a little bit of apples to oranges?
      - vGPU 3y ago
        HTC is one of the current market leaders and the vive pro 2 is by far the highest resolution device available among the big companies.
      - wastewastewaste 3y ago
        What matters is the resolution, not the brand lol
        ericd 3y ago
        It’s not just brand, Apple is much better at making high quality devices than HTC.
- jdkoeck 3y ago
  You obviously haven't watched the keynote.
- LtdJorge 3y ago
  23Mp is a freaking lot, tho
  - paxys 3y ago
    That's just marketing nonsense. You get 23MP if you combine both displays in the headset. Well guess what, they show the same picture, so the actual resolution is half that. And out of that only the pixels in the center are going to be sharp enough to be usable (notice that none of the demos ever extended the picture all the way to the edge).
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    It has nothing to do with resolution and everything to do with your eyes looking at a screen an inch from your face while a mask is strapped over them. That's just not comfortable and no fruit logo changes that.
- geysersam 3y ago
  > VR is an awful, desperate, not fit for purpose replacement for even a single 1080p monitor. But for how much longer? I can really see the benefit of having "more space" when working on a computer. We're peeking through needle holes, small screens mostly covered by bars and menues. If we're lucky the context we need for our task fits on two large screens. I believe this strains our working memory more than we understand. Making us do thing slower, worse and with more effort. VR has the potential to unlock much more "space" that we can navigate in a way that is much more natural to us. Not sure if the tech is up to the task today or if it will be in 10 years. But the value proposition is clear.
  - llampx 3y ago
    The same designers who are designing your web and app experience will also design your AR and VR experience.
    - geysersam 3y ago
      I think designers are doing a good job. They just don't have great material to work with.
  - godelski 3y ago
    Not to mention that the screen is becoming a bigger and bigger part of the mass of the computer. I wouldn't expect to like this first product but 5-10 years down the line it isn't unreasonable to believe that your computer is your phone, you take it everywhere with you, and your monitor is your glasses (benefit if you already wear glasses). That sounds pretty cool. Keyboard is the next big thing imo, because virtual typing sucks and I need something tactile. We'll probably need to rethink the entire concept though. My main concern is about collaboration. Specifically, a fear with Apple lockin. When you pair program you can just sit down at either computer. Will we have an open protocol to share screens (or specific apps in screens like modern screenshare does)? Will is be semi-open like the current MMS system where Apple makes you look at a potato? My concern is about how these can be used to further isolate ourselves and break our fundamental social structure. But part of that will be how we use them, along with the decisions these companies make. I just hope Apple doesn't lock everyone in, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
- ricardobeat 3y ago
  There is nothing on the market that gets close to what Apple is releasing here. The total resolution is nearly three times 4k. They don't mention FOV, but the description implies something approaching 180 degrees, and this being Apple, plus foveated rendering as a feature, you can assume smooth rendering somewhere between 120-240hz.
  - jsheard 3y ago
    "23 million pixels across two displays" = sqrt(23 million / 2) = 3391x3391 per eye assuming square panels. That's less horizontal resolution than a 4K monitor (3840x2160) stretched across your entire field of view.
    - ricardobeat 3y ago
      It's not as simple as that though, with your head and eyes in constant movement and two separate screens with a high refresh rate. The G2 or Vive have 50% less density and it's already quite hard to distinguish individual pixels.
    - msvan 3y ago
      A 4K monitor has 8.3M pixels, so you could equivalently say that it's ~three 4K monitors.
      - deleted 3y ago
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      - deleted 3y ago
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- numpad0 3y ago
  20/20 vision is defined as 1MOA, or 1/60th degrees of angular resolution. Necessary resolution at typical FOV of 100 degrees is therefore 6k x 6k pixels. 4k x 4k per eye is not quite the "Retina" equivalent but actually not as off as earlier attempts at VR.
swarnie 3y ago
Tim, if this is your alt account you're legally obligated to say so.
BulgarianIdiot 3y ago
Better productivity workflow: a sweaty device you need to carry on your head, with a cable with a battery pack, for the spectacular 2 hours battery life, reproducing low-resolution virtual displays around you, which you are supposed to very productively operate by clumsily making finger gestures around the display (instead of on them). Yeah, I'll keep my monitors, mouse and keyboard, and my smartphone, thanks.
- geysersam 3y ago
  Whatever happened to that Google glass tech? Didn't look as "sweaty" as those bigger VR sets. > Yeah, I'll keep my monitors, mouse and keyboard, and my smartphone, thanks. I don't see why we'd need to replace both input- and output devices at the same time. Improve the output first and maybe the input later.
  - drdaeman 3y ago
    > Whatever happened to that Google glass tech? Inability to overlay graphics over the real world. We only know how to do so additively (shine some light in the eye to make things bright), but AFAIK there is no solution to effectively and dynamically black out some part of the picture you see. Also, at the time, people had freaked out about wearing cameras in public. (I wonder if I need to purchase some popcorn to watch how it'll go for this one, or if it's gonna be different.)
    - safarimonkey 3y ago
      Magic Leap 2 has a segmented dimmer that works fairly well. It's a small probably-LCD panel that sits in front of your eye. It lets the headset black out part of your view, leaving a kinda blurry shadow around objects.
    - floren 3y ago
      > Also, at the time, people had freaked out about wearing cameras in public. (I wonder if I need to purchase some popcorn to watch how it'll go for this one, or if it's gonna be different.) My prediction is that it's going to be A Thing to wear this at all times, even if your battery is dead, similar to the way The Kids These Days have their airpods in 24/7. Pressure your mom until she finally gets you a pair ("free" with 10 year Verizon contract)
deleted 3y ago
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detrites 3y ago
Consider trying any VR headset first, the interface has a few unanticipated effects for many people. Eg, nausea, headaches, dizzyness etc. A "productivity workflow" might only last half an hour before you're fatigued from its innate unnaturalness.
- boppo1 3y ago
  I think that's what the resolution, sensors and low latency are for.
jknoepfler 3y ago
Having made a serious attempt at a virtual workspace for development myself, I'll just say: it's ok, but there are a lot of challenges. To develop, I need an actual fully-featured operating system with a terminal, a full suite of tools and libraries, and an application ecosystem. To date, proxying all of that through a desktop/laptop to a virtual display or virtual remote desktop is clunky at best. Reading in VR is unpleasant. Typing in VR is unpleasant. Juggling controllers in VR is unpleasant. Wearing a headset for more than an hour or two is gross - you will really need to spend time and effort keeping the bits that touch your face clean. Cords are a hassle and the weird constant slight resistance starts to drive me nuts after awhile. For me there wasn't a hard deal-breaking issue, just a death by a thousand cuts. Don't get me wrong - you can absolutely do it. For myself, it fell far short of the friction-free space for deep productivity I was after. Also, again speaking personally, there is no way in hell I'm going to show up to work video meeting as a cartoon avatar (or turn my camera off). So meetings sort of break the whole thing. Maybe this product will solve a lot of those friction points. I think that would be great, personally, but I'm skeptical.

I don’t care about games at all. Have never put on a VR headset. But I will likely pre-order Vision for a better productivity workflow. Apple will get the OS right, whereas Meta never had a chance.

mrguyorama 3y ago

Oh good, just wait until you get regular headaches from attempting to decipher the text on your virtual screen. It works terribly. VR is an awful, desperate, not fit for purpose replacement for even a single 1080p monitor.

bl0rg 3y ago
May I ask which headsets you've tried? I was stunned by the visual clarity of even a Pico 4, and I expect the vision pro to be far clearer.
- vGPU 3y ago
  I have a vive pro 2. Text is unreadable. Absolutely terrible lenses.
  - ericd 3y ago
    Do you think that comparing HTC to Apple might be a little bit of apples to oranges?
    - vGPU 3y ago
      HTC is one of the current market leaders and the vive pro 2 is by far the highest resolution device available among the big companies.
    - wastewastewaste 3y ago
      What matters is the resolution, not the brand lol
      - ericd 3y ago
        It’s not just brand, Apple is much better at making high quality devices than HTC.
jdkoeck 3y ago
You obviously haven't watched the keynote.
LtdJorge 3y ago
23Mp is a freaking lot, tho
- paxys 3y ago
  That's just marketing nonsense. You get 23MP if you combine both displays in the headset. Well guess what, they show the same picture, so the actual resolution is half that. And out of that only the pixels in the center are going to be sharp enough to be usable (notice that none of the demos ever extended the picture all the way to the edge).
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  It has nothing to do with resolution and everything to do with your eyes looking at a screen an inch from your face while a mask is strapped over them. That's just not comfortable and no fruit logo changes that.
geysersam 3y ago
> VR is an awful, desperate, not fit for purpose replacement for even a single 1080p monitor. But for how much longer? I can really see the benefit of having "more space" when working on a computer. We're peeking through needle holes, small screens mostly covered by bars and menues. If we're lucky the context we need for our task fits on two large screens. I believe this strains our working memory more than we understand. Making us do thing slower, worse and with more effort. VR has the potential to unlock much more "space" that we can navigate in a way that is much more natural to us. Not sure if the tech is up to the task today or if it will be in 10 years. But the value proposition is clear.
- llampx 3y ago
  The same designers who are designing your web and app experience will also design your AR and VR experience.
  - geysersam 3y ago
    I think designers are doing a good job. They just don't have great material to work with.
- godelski 3y ago
  Not to mention that the screen is becoming a bigger and bigger part of the mass of the computer. I wouldn't expect to like this first product but 5-10 years down the line it isn't unreasonable to believe that your computer is your phone, you take it everywhere with you, and your monitor is your glasses (benefit if you already wear glasses). That sounds pretty cool. Keyboard is the next big thing imo, because virtual typing sucks and I need something tactile. We'll probably need to rethink the entire concept though. My main concern is about collaboration. Specifically, a fear with Apple lockin. When you pair program you can just sit down at either computer. Will we have an open protocol to share screens (or specific apps in screens like modern screenshare does)? Will is be semi-open like the current MMS system where Apple makes you look at a potato? My concern is about how these can be used to further isolate ourselves and break our fundamental social structure. But part of that will be how we use them, along with the decisions these companies make. I just hope Apple doesn't lock everyone in, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
ricardobeat 3y ago
There is nothing on the market that gets close to what Apple is releasing here. The total resolution is nearly three times 4k. They don't mention FOV, but the description implies something approaching 180 degrees, and this being Apple, plus foveated rendering as a feature, you can assume smooth rendering somewhere between 120-240hz.
- jsheard 3y ago
  "23 million pixels across two displays" = sqrt(23 million / 2) = 3391x3391 per eye assuming square panels. That's less horizontal resolution than a 4K monitor (3840x2160) stretched across your entire field of view.
  - ricardobeat 3y ago
    It's not as simple as that though, with your head and eyes in constant movement and two separate screens with a high refresh rate. The G2 or Vive have 50% less density and it's already quite hard to distinguish individual pixels.
  - msvan 3y ago
    A 4K monitor has 8.3M pixels, so you could equivalently say that it's ~three 4K monitors.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
numpad0 3y ago
20/20 vision is defined as 1MOA, or 1/60th degrees of angular resolution. Necessary resolution at typical FOV of 100 degrees is therefore 6k x 6k pixels. 4k x 4k per eye is not quite the "Retina" equivalent but actually not as off as earlier attempts at VR.

swarnie 3y ago

Tim, if this is your alt account you're legally obligated to say so.

BulgarianIdiot 3y ago

Better productivity workflow: a sweaty device you need to carry on your head, with a cable with a battery pack, for the spectacular 2 hours battery life, reproducing low-resolution virtual displays around you, which you are supposed to very productively operate by clumsily making finger gestures around the display (instead of on them). Yeah, I'll keep my monitors, mouse and keyboard, and my smartphone, thanks.

geysersam 3y ago
Whatever happened to that Google glass tech? Didn't look as "sweaty" as those bigger VR sets. > Yeah, I'll keep my monitors, mouse and keyboard, and my smartphone, thanks. I don't see why we'd need to replace both input- and output devices at the same time. Improve the output first and maybe the input later.
- drdaeman 3y ago
  > Whatever happened to that Google glass tech? Inability to overlay graphics over the real world. We only know how to do so additively (shine some light in the eye to make things bright), but AFAIK there is no solution to effectively and dynamically black out some part of the picture you see. Also, at the time, people had freaked out about wearing cameras in public. (I wonder if I need to purchase some popcorn to watch how it'll go for this one, or if it's gonna be different.)
  - safarimonkey 3y ago
    Magic Leap 2 has a segmented dimmer that works fairly well. It's a small probably-LCD panel that sits in front of your eye. It lets the headset black out part of your view, leaving a kinda blurry shadow around objects.
  - floren 3y ago
    > Also, at the time, people had freaked out about wearing cameras in public. (I wonder if I need to purchase some popcorn to watch how it'll go for this one, or if it's gonna be different.) My prediction is that it's going to be A Thing to wear this at all times, even if your battery is dead, similar to the way The Kids These Days have their airpods in 24/7. Pressure your mom until she finally gets you a pair ("free" with 10 year Verizon contract)

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

detrites 3y ago

Consider trying any VR headset first, the interface has a few unanticipated effects for many people. Eg, nausea, headaches, dizzyness etc. A "productivity workflow" might only last half an hour before you're fatigued from its innate unnaturalness.

boppo1 3y ago
I think that's what the resolution, sensors and low latency are for.

jknoepfler 3y ago

Having made a serious attempt at a virtual workspace for development myself, I'll just say: it's ok, but there are a lot of challenges. To develop, I need an actual fully-featured operating system with a terminal, a full suite of tools and libraries, and an application ecosystem. To date, proxying all of that through a desktop/laptop to a virtual display or virtual remote desktop is clunky at best. Reading in VR is unpleasant. Typing in VR is unpleasant. Juggling controllers in VR is unpleasant. Wearing a headset for more than an hour or two is gross - you will really need to spend time and effort keeping the bits that touch your face clean. Cords are a hassle and the weird constant slight resistance starts to drive me nuts after awhile. For me there wasn't a hard deal-breaking issue, just a death by a thousand cuts. Don't get me wrong - you can absolutely do it. For myself, it fell far short of the friction-free space for deep productivity I was after. Also, again speaking personally, there is no way in hell I'm going to show up to work video meeting as a cartoon avatar (or turn my camera off). So meetings sort of break the whole thing. Maybe this product will solve a lot of those friction points. I think that would be great, personally, but I'm skeptical.