5 ms·

Hierapolis Sawmill

76 points by benbreen 3y ago

Symbiote 3y ago
The carving is photographed here: https://static.cambridge.org/content/id/urn%3Acambridge.org%3Aid%3Aarticle%3AS1047759400005341/resource/name/firstPage-S1047759400005341a.jpg https://static.cambridge.org/content/id/urn%3Acambridge.org%... Via https://doi.org/10.1017/S1047759400005341 https://doi.org/10.1017/S1047759400005341
0x_rs 3y ago
I think one of the largest examples of water-based mechanical engineering from around that time is at Barbegal [0], the greatest known concentration of mechanical power in the ancient world and The capacity of the mills has been estimated at 4.5 tons of flour per day, enough to supply bread for as many as 10,000 of perhaps 30–40,000 inhabitants of Arelate at that time. Spain mines also had very interesting (albeit slave-powered) solutions, with up to 16 wheels draining a mine over 30 vertical meters[1] (and possibly more in other sites), one of which was discovered "intact"! [2, 3] Pre-industrial era engineering in general can be very fascinating. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbegal_aqueduct_and_mills https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbegal_aqueduct_and_mills 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_overshot_water_wheel#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_overshot_water_wheel#E... 2. https://www.naturalhistorymag.com/sites/default/files/media/2017/05/roman_water_wheel_jpg_15964.jpg https://www.naturalhistorymag.com/sites/default/files/media/... 3. https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/G_1889-0622-1 https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/G_1889-0622-...
wil421 3y ago
They didn’t have the metallurgy to make a reliable steam engine. However I think they could’ve industrialized a lot of things using a bronze turbine or waterwheel and a ton of belt systems like old factories once did with line shafts.[1] [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_shaft https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_shaft
- qwytw 3y ago
  > didn’t have the metallurgy I wonder if in theory they could've made in bronze. It was still generally the superior metal compared to iron/steel in most ways till the middle ages (IIRC) and much easier to work. It's only downside was cost.
  - tlb 3y ago
    If you make both piston and cylinder out of bronze, they stick together and wear quickly. It's better to make one from bronze and one from iron.
- tomohawk 3y ago
  And not much motive to develop it. Slaves were abundant and the practice was widely accepted in paganism. This skewed the economics to favor making use of them.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Slaves were cheaper than the early steam engines. As such even if you built a steam engine (I think historians have documented primitive ones that did work - but they were small, very low power, and inefficient) it wasn't clear that the effort to develop it into something better is worth the cost.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      Machines can work 24/7, don't get sick, don't get lazy, don't need training, don't need to be fed, etc. Even in a world where slave labor was cheaper, machines were obviously better. Fewer people could produce the same output no matter how you look at it.
      - bluGill 3y ago
        Machines break all the time. Particularly when you are faced with the metals available back then. They are a lot more reliable today, but we have had ~200 years of industrial revolution to learn how to make reliable machines. We also have a lot more population, and that means a lot more people thinking about how to make machines more reliable. Modern machines are clearly better than slave labor today. However 2000 years ago a lot of things were different.
Jun8 3y ago
Relevant HN discussion on why Romans didn’t achieve Industrial Revolution: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32607187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32607187 Spoiler: it wasn’t because slaves were cheap.
DoreenMichele 3y ago
for the first time, all essential components of the much later steam engine were assembled by one technological culture Though comments here indicate they lacked sufficient metallurgy. It makes me think of the wolf riders books. A series about "elves" that are basically descendants from a crashed alien ship and there are two groups of them, forming a mini civilization. Humans seem endlessly fascinated with the question of what is the minimum viable product to make civilization as we know it? or something along those lines. That seems to be a basic impetus behind a lot of dystopian/post-disaster stories. It seems to be a means to strip away a lot of current social stuff and imagine a world with fewer people where someone -- or a few people -- with the right knowledge can create a more civilized microcosm by keeping some of our achievements while largely eliminating the hell is other people parts. On the flip side is Kyle in Terminator saying "I didn't build the fucking thing!" in exasperation, a scene with seemingly broad appeal, like it hits a nerve for a lot of people. And maybe we should be wondering in more practical, real world terms about the technological MVP for civilization. Like if you were a bit of a luddite, how would you arrange a comfortable existence where you could understand a lot of the essential tech required to sustain the lifestyle to which you've become accustomed.
- tzs 3y ago
  > It makes me think of the wolf riders books. A series about "elves" that are basically descendants from a crashed alien ship and there are two groups of them, forming a mini civilization. This [1], I presume? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfquest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfquest
  - DoreenMichele 3y ago
    Yes.
kazinator 3y ago
Any time a human arm is used to turn a crank, you have a crank mechanism in reverse: reciprocating rod translating to rotation.

76 points by benbreen 3y ago

The carving is photographed here: https://static.cambridge.org/content/id/urn%3Acambridge.org%3Aid%3Aarticle%3AS1047759400005341/resource/name/firstPage-S1047759400005341a.jpg https://static.cambridge.org/content/id/urn%3Acambridge.org%... Via https://doi.org/10.1017/S1047759400005341 https://doi.org/10.1017/S1047759400005341

0x_rs 3y ago

I think one of the largest examples of water-based mechanical engineering from around that time is at Barbegal [0], the greatest known concentration of mechanical power in the ancient world and The capacity of the mills has been estimated at 4.5 tons of flour per day, enough to supply bread for as many as 10,000 of perhaps 30–40,000 inhabitants of Arelate at that time. Spain mines also had very interesting (albeit slave-powered) solutions, with up to 16 wheels draining a mine over 30 vertical meters[1] (and possibly more in other sites), one of which was discovered "intact"! [2, 3] Pre-industrial era engineering in general can be very fascinating. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbegal_aqueduct_and_mills https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbegal_aqueduct_and_mills 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_overshot_water_wheel#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_overshot_water_wheel#E... 2. https://www.naturalhistorymag.com/sites/default/files/media/2017/05/roman_water_wheel_jpg_15964.jpg https://www.naturalhistorymag.com/sites/default/files/media/... 3. https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/G_1889-0622-1 https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/G_1889-0622-...

wil421 3y ago

They didn’t have the metallurgy to make a reliable steam engine. However I think they could’ve industrialized a lot of things using a bronze turbine or waterwheel and a ton of belt systems like old factories once did with line shafts.[1] [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_shaft https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_shaft

qwytw 3y ago
> didn’t have the metallurgy I wonder if in theory they could've made in bronze. It was still generally the superior metal compared to iron/steel in most ways till the middle ages (IIRC) and much easier to work. It's only downside was cost.
- tlb 3y ago
  If you make both piston and cylinder out of bronze, they stick together and wear quickly. It's better to make one from bronze and one from iron.
tomohawk 3y ago
And not much motive to develop it. Slaves were abundant and the practice was widely accepted in paganism. This skewed the economics to favor making use of them.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Slaves were cheaper than the early steam engines. As such even if you built a steam engine (I think historians have documented primitive ones that did work - but they were small, very low power, and inefficient) it wasn't clear that the effort to develop it into something better is worth the cost.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    Machines can work 24/7, don't get sick, don't get lazy, don't need training, don't need to be fed, etc. Even in a world where slave labor was cheaper, machines were obviously better. Fewer people could produce the same output no matter how you look at it.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      Machines break all the time. Particularly when you are faced with the metals available back then. They are a lot more reliable today, but we have had ~200 years of industrial revolution to learn how to make reliable machines. We also have a lot more population, and that means a lot more people thinking about how to make machines more reliable. Modern machines are clearly better than slave labor today. However 2000 years ago a lot of things were different.

Jun8 3y ago

Relevant HN discussion on why Romans didn’t achieve Industrial Revolution: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32607187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32607187 Spoiler: it wasn’t because slaves were cheap.

DoreenMichele 3y ago

for the first time, all essential components of the much later steam engine were assembled by one technological culture Though comments here indicate they lacked sufficient metallurgy. It makes me think of the wolf riders books. A series about "elves" that are basically descendants from a crashed alien ship and there are two groups of them, forming a mini civilization. Humans seem endlessly fascinated with the question of what is the minimum viable product to make civilization as we know it? or something along those lines. That seems to be a basic impetus behind a lot of dystopian/post-disaster stories. It seems to be a means to strip away a lot of current social stuff and imagine a world with fewer people where someone -- or a few people -- with the right knowledge can create a more civilized microcosm by keeping some of our achievements while largely eliminating the hell is other people parts. On the flip side is Kyle in Terminator saying "I didn't build the fucking thing!" in exasperation, a scene with seemingly broad appeal, like it hits a nerve for a lot of people. And maybe we should be wondering in more practical, real world terms about the technological MVP for civilization. Like if you were a bit of a luddite, how would you arrange a comfortable existence where you could understand a lot of the essential tech required to sustain the lifestyle to which you've become accustomed.

tzs 3y ago
> It makes me think of the wolf riders books. A series about "elves" that are basically descendants from a crashed alien ship and there are two groups of them, forming a mini civilization. This [1], I presume? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfquest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfquest
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  Yes.

kazinator 3y ago

Any time a human arm is used to turn a crank, you have a crank mechanism in reverse: reciprocating rod translating to rotation.