4 ms·

As a huge supporter of the 2nd Amendment, I'm glad you posted this and I hope it doesn't get flagged. I could hardly disagree with you more than I do, but it's

by injb 3y ago

As a huge supporter of the 2nd Amendment, I'm glad you posted this and I hope it doesn't get flagged. I could hardly disagree with you more than I do, but it's nice to see someone acknowledge that they just don't agree with the law and would like to see it changed as opposed to looking for ways to maintain that the law is something other than it is (which everyone on all sides of pretty much every major debate has been doing, not just guns).

bitwize 3y ago
Yeah, I get tired of telling liberals, what you really want is Second Amendment repeal. So say that instead of burbling about "assault weapons" (which is politician for tacticool-looking rifles generally of smaller caliber than many hunting rifles), "common sense gun law reform", etc. Because you're not getting much done and you're putting conservatives on high alert, and you'll get punished for it come election time. Get the support. Repeal the amendment. Go full Lincoln: start implementing strict gun measures through statutes and EOs. Don't give a shit this time if conservatives get mad; if they threaten war, round them up and make examples out of them. And while the constitutionality battle winds its way through the courts, drag repeal toward the center of the Overton window until, like gay marriage, it becomes an obvious policy winner with overwhelming bipartisan support. Just in case, pack the court with liberal justices who will opine the RKBA back to a collective right which it was generally agreed to be until the far right took utter control of the NRA and the Republican Party. Oh yeah, and sue, sue, sue. Sue gun manufacturers, ammo manufacturers, gun rights organizations, and politicians who voted and advocated against gun laws. The First Amendment only protects you from jail for your heinous speech; as we've seen with Alex Jones, it doesn't protect you from billion-dollar judgements if you choose to spread lies about the dangers of widespread gun availability, gun culture, and the violence these enable.
jfengel 3y ago
Repealing the Second Amendment is impossible. It's a ludicrously high bar. Even ordinary legislation on gun laws is nearly impossible, and a Constitutional amendment is much harder. I believe it would be great if we could repeal the Second Amendment and replace it with something clearer and better suited to the 21st century. As it is, pretty much every discussion about guns ends with "The Second Amendment says no", and the conversation stops there. As it stands, I think that the vagueness of the second amendment (due to the prefatory clause the gun-rights supporters claim means nothing at all) could have been used to have a coherent discussion. The Supreme Court agrees that the prefatory clause is irrelevant, and that's the end of it. There is no appeal from the Supreme Court except amendments, which might as well not exist. So I don't think it's helpful to deflect that onto the fact that we can't talk about the Second Amendment. You know that it can't be changed, and between that and the Supreme Court, you've got absolute power to set the rules to whatever you want them to be. Everybody else is at your mercy, and so it's entirely on the "huge supporters of the Second Amendment" to listen to what people actually want -- not to get shot -- and find ways to bring that about.
- injb 3y ago
  With respect, the height of the bar to getting what you want is your problem, not mine. The gist of your post seems to be that your right to what you want is a forgone conclusion and if you don't see a way to get it legally, then I have to find some other way for you to get it. The truth is that if you can't persuade me to give you what you want and the law is not on your side, then you don't get to have it. And that really is the end of it. That's what it means to live under the rule of law. It's a good thing that repealing the 2A is nigh on impossible as far as I'm concerned. I don't see it as an obstacle. I see it as part of the bedrock of the American social contract.

by injb 3y ago

bitwize 3y ago

Yeah, I get tired of telling liberals, what you really want is Second Amendment repeal. So say that instead of burbling about "assault weapons" (which is politician for tacticool-looking rifles generally of smaller caliber than many hunting rifles), "common sense gun law reform", etc. Because you're not getting much done and you're putting conservatives on high alert, and you'll get punished for it come election time. Get the support. Repeal the amendment. Go full Lincoln: start implementing strict gun measures through statutes and EOs. Don't give a shit this time if conservatives get mad; if they threaten war, round them up and make examples out of them. And while the constitutionality battle winds its way through the courts, drag repeal toward the center of the Overton window until, like gay marriage, it becomes an obvious policy winner with overwhelming bipartisan support. Just in case, pack the court with liberal justices who will opine the RKBA back to a collective right which it was generally agreed to be until the far right took utter control of the NRA and the Republican Party. Oh yeah, and sue, sue, sue. Sue gun manufacturers, ammo manufacturers, gun rights organizations, and politicians who voted and advocated against gun laws. The First Amendment only protects you from jail for your heinous speech; as we've seen with Alex Jones, it doesn't protect you from billion-dollar judgements if you choose to spread lies about the dangers of widespread gun availability, gun culture, and the violence these enable.

jfengel 3y ago

Repealing the Second Amendment is impossible. It's a ludicrously high bar. Even ordinary legislation on gun laws is nearly impossible, and a Constitutional amendment is much harder. I believe it would be great if we could repeal the Second Amendment and replace it with something clearer and better suited to the 21st century. As it is, pretty much every discussion about guns ends with "The Second Amendment says no", and the conversation stops there. As it stands, I think that the vagueness of the second amendment (due to the prefatory clause the gun-rights supporters claim means nothing at all) could have been used to have a coherent discussion. The Supreme Court agrees that the prefatory clause is irrelevant, and that's the end of it. There is no appeal from the Supreme Court except amendments, which might as well not exist. So I don't think it's helpful to deflect that onto the fact that we can't talk about the Second Amendment. You know that it can't be changed, and between that and the Supreme Court, you've got absolute power to set the rules to whatever you want them to be. Everybody else is at your mercy, and so it's entirely on the "huge supporters of the Second Amendment" to listen to what people actually want -- not to get shot -- and find ways to bring that about.

injb 3y ago
With respect, the height of the bar to getting what you want is your problem, not mine. The gist of your post seems to be that your right to what you want is a forgone conclusion and if you don't see a way to get it legally, then I have to find some other way for you to get it. The truth is that if you can't persuade me to give you what you want and the law is not on your side, then you don't get to have it. And that really is the end of it. That's what it means to live under the rule of law. It's a good thing that repealing the 2A is nigh on impossible as far as I'm concerned. I don't see it as an obstacle. I see it as part of the bedrock of the American social contract.