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Interesting that the chip still doesn't seem to support hardware acceleration for AV1 despite the fact that Apple is a member of the Alliance for Open Media con

Interesting that the chip still doesn't seem to support hardware acceleration for AV1 despite the fact that Apple is a member of the Alliance for Open Media consortium which developed the format.

brianwawok 3y ago
1) What percent of all media is AV1? 2) Does software encoding/decoding block any workflows? Which ones?
- thfuran 3y ago
  Software decoding tends to use a lot more energy even if the CPU can keep up.
- c0balt 3y ago
  1) Some small sites, like YouTube, are adopting it. However it is a chicken-egg problem that usually has to start from the hardware site because, in contrary to software, it can't be added later. That's why those organizations usually include Companies like Intel, which had delivered AV1 with their GPUs recently. 2) None, really, the increased use of bandwidth + CPU time is not a blocker per se. In this case y don't need hardware support but it sure as heck wold be nice to use those CPU cycles for something else.
- Havoc 3y ago
  Most of the live streaming stuff seems to be converging towards AV1.
mdasen 3y ago
Apple seems to be taking a wait-and-see approach with AV1. Sure, they're an AOM member, but lots of companies are members of bodies that they aren't enthusiastic about. I'm not saying that's the case with Apple. I'm just pointing out that membership doesn't mean enthusiastic support. Microsoft withheld AVIF (AV1 image format) support from Edge despite the fact that Chrome/Chromium support it and Microsoft said it was due to licensing issues (https://toot.cafe/@slightlyoff/109899372183448386 https://toot.cafe/@slightlyoff/109899372183448386). It is finally getting support, but clearly there was something Microsoft's lawyers were worried about. It's possible that Apple has some similar concerns, despite the fact that AVIF is supported for Safari. Maybe Apple thinks that some portions of AV1 that are only in video are problematic. It's even possible that Apple has hardware support for AV1 in their M2 chips and just has it locked away until their lawyers green-light it. Companies and their lawyers are going to see a lot more claims than we do about this stuff. We know Microsoft was concerned about AVIF, but we have no idea what their licensing concerns were. It might just remain a mystery to us for a while.
bruhsfx2 3y ago
Not to say for sure Apple Silicon chips support HW AV1 decode, but I would speculate that recent generations of their SoCs may have hardware support behind a software limitation through the lack of APIs. Under /System/Library/Video/Plug-Ins/AppleVideoDecoder.bundle there's a Info.plist, inside there are references to AV1, below that is VTIsHardwareAccelerated = true. AVD refers to Apple Silicon HW decoder. Side note, GVA means Intel, VCP means AMD. I guess it will be like the situation of VP9. It was available at first via a special entitlement to YouTube iOS app [1] (com.apple.developer.coremedia.allow-alternate-video-decoder-selection) and later opened to all apps. References: 1. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-m1-vp9-av1-decoding.2269938/post-29417159 https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-m1-vp9-av1-decodi...

Interesting that the chip still doesn't seem to support hardware acceleration for AV1 despite the fact that Apple is a member of the Alliance for Open Media consortium which developed the format.

brianwawok 3y ago

1) What percent of all media is AV1? 2) Does software encoding/decoding block any workflows? Which ones?

thfuran 3y ago
Software decoding tends to use a lot more energy even if the CPU can keep up.
c0balt 3y ago
1) Some small sites, like YouTube, are adopting it. However it is a chicken-egg problem that usually has to start from the hardware site because, in contrary to software, it can't be added later. That's why those organizations usually include Companies like Intel, which had delivered AV1 with their GPUs recently. 2) None, really, the increased use of bandwidth + CPU time is not a blocker per se. In this case y don't need hardware support but it sure as heck wold be nice to use those CPU cycles for something else.
Havoc 3y ago
Most of the live streaming stuff seems to be converging towards AV1.

mdasen 3y ago

Apple seems to be taking a wait-and-see approach with AV1. Sure, they're an AOM member, but lots of companies are members of bodies that they aren't enthusiastic about. I'm not saying that's the case with Apple. I'm just pointing out that membership doesn't mean enthusiastic support. Microsoft withheld AVIF (AV1 image format) support from Edge despite the fact that Chrome/Chromium support it and Microsoft said it was due to licensing issues (https://toot.cafe/@slightlyoff/109899372183448386 https://toot.cafe/@slightlyoff/109899372183448386). It is finally getting support, but clearly there was something Microsoft's lawyers were worried about. It's possible that Apple has some similar concerns, despite the fact that AVIF is supported for Safari. Maybe Apple thinks that some portions of AV1 that are only in video are problematic. It's even possible that Apple has hardware support for AV1 in their M2 chips and just has it locked away until their lawyers green-light it. Companies and their lawyers are going to see a lot more claims than we do about this stuff. We know Microsoft was concerned about AVIF, but we have no idea what their licensing concerns were. It might just remain a mystery to us for a while.

bruhsfx2 3y ago

Not to say for sure Apple Silicon chips support HW AV1 decode, but I would speculate that recent generations of their SoCs may have hardware support behind a software limitation through the lack of APIs. Under /System/Library/Video/Plug-Ins/AppleVideoDecoder.bundle there's a Info.plist, inside there are references to AV1, below that is VTIsHardwareAccelerated = true. AVD refers to Apple Silicon HW decoder. Side note, GVA means Intel, VCP means AMD. I guess it will be like the situation of VP9. It was available at first via a special entitlement to YouTube iOS app [1] (com.apple.developer.coremedia.allow-alternate-video-decoder-selection) and later opened to all apps. References: 1. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-m1-vp9-av1-decoding.2269938/post-29417159 https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-m1-vp9-av1-decodi...