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These aren’t “technical errors”. These are user errors, made by people who know just enough about Excel to use it, but not to include anything that validates th

These aren’t “technical errors”. These are user errors, made by people who know just enough about Excel to use it, but not to include anything that validates the results - or constraints that prevent intentional or unintentional manipulation of sheets, once considered “done”. Unfortunately, this is not a problem with the tool, Excel does what it’s supposed to. Any tool in the hands of someone not properly trained to use it, or without the discipline to use it correctly, adds a risk of incorrect output.

mint2 3y ago
I would say that the Citibank loan payment fiasco was mostly due to bad software design - which yes is mostly due to bad management priorities and validation. I don’t think most people look at that and say “that was pure user error, the software is fine” On the other side of the spectrum there’s pure user error aka pebkac. Where does this instance sit on the spectrum, I.e. even although it is possible to do a lot of things in excel, it’s often not a good idea to do many of things in it for a variety of deficiencies.
cultureswitch 3y ago
It is a problem with the tool. The footguns outnumber useful functionality ten to one.
somat 3y ago
The problem is fundamental to the spreadsheet data model. Spreadsheets use the "big bag of cells" data model, where anything can go anywhere. The people who enjoy spreadsheets like this data model, it is very quick to get something up and running. Those of us who don't like spreadsheets hate it. it encourages the mixing of data and code. it promotes coding via copy/paste and all the opportunities for code/data addressing mismatches that go with it. But for me the thing that drives spreadsheets from mildly annoying to outright dislike is that there is very little done to keep data rows intact, it is very easy for items in a row of data to end up where they shouldn't be. All I really want is row security... So I ended up replacing my spreadsheets with relational databases. the UI sucks in comparison. but at least my rows stay intact.
- elmolino89 3y ago
  Even with plain text CSV files one can detect that a given cell was changed, have md5 checksums of files, etc. In a day to day use where users often share their edits using emails just figuring out which is the correct and most recent copy is a fools errand. In some settings the sheets are just a giant white boards: different parts of the same sheet can contain partially replicated and not cross-checked data. Samples in columns, so each row is a different type. "Free flow of thought" or annotations of say numerical cell with text in the same cell. All this steams from the fact that users do not see the data as something to be queried and compared but as a board one can just look at.
TomK32 3y ago
Austrian politicians on all levels rarely admit their mistakes, the same yesterday where the blame was put on technical errors and the lack of a second count (preferably on paper, it's only 600 votes after all) was barely mentioned. Procedures were sloppy and hastened, hence the error wasn't spotted on Saturday.
diarrhea 3y ago
Exactly the same line of argumentation people bring forward in defense of C. If only it was used correctly, it would work! But it isn’t and it won’t, and modern alternatives are popular for a reason. It’s a technology problem.

mint2 3y ago

I would say that the Citibank loan payment fiasco was mostly due to bad software design - which yes is mostly due to bad management priorities and validation. I don’t think most people look at that and say “that was pure user error, the software is fine” On the other side of the spectrum there’s pure user error aka pebkac. Where does this instance sit on the spectrum, I.e. even although it is possible to do a lot of things in excel, it’s often not a good idea to do many of things in it for a variety of deficiencies.

cultureswitch 3y ago

It is a problem with the tool. The footguns outnumber useful functionality ten to one.

somat 3y ago

The problem is fundamental to the spreadsheet data model. Spreadsheets use the "big bag of cells" data model, where anything can go anywhere. The people who enjoy spreadsheets like this data model, it is very quick to get something up and running. Those of us who don't like spreadsheets hate it. it encourages the mixing of data and code. it promotes coding via copy/paste and all the opportunities for code/data addressing mismatches that go with it. But for me the thing that drives spreadsheets from mildly annoying to outright dislike is that there is very little done to keep data rows intact, it is very easy for items in a row of data to end up where they shouldn't be. All I really want is row security... So I ended up replacing my spreadsheets with relational databases. the UI sucks in comparison. but at least my rows stay intact.

elmolino89 3y ago
Even with plain text CSV files one can detect that a given cell was changed, have md5 checksums of files, etc. In a day to day use where users often share their edits using emails just figuring out which is the correct and most recent copy is a fools errand. In some settings the sheets are just a giant white boards: different parts of the same sheet can contain partially replicated and not cross-checked data. Samples in columns, so each row is a different type. "Free flow of thought" or annotations of say numerical cell with text in the same cell. All this steams from the fact that users do not see the data as something to be queried and compared but as a board one can just look at.

TomK32 3y ago

Austrian politicians on all levels rarely admit their mistakes, the same yesterday where the blame was put on technical errors and the lack of a second count (preferably on paper, it's only 600 votes after all) was barely mentioned. Procedures were sloppy and hastened, hence the error wasn't spotted on Saturday.

diarrhea 3y ago

Exactly the same line of argumentation people bring forward in defense of C. If only it was used correctly, it would work! But it isn’t and it won’t, and modern alternatives are popular for a reason. It’s a technology problem.