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And every time someone does it, and it's a globe-spanning platform, someone should respond quickly by saying well at least some of these people have to deal wit

by CPLX 3y ago

And every time someone does it, and it's a globe-spanning platform, someone should respond quickly by saying well at least some of these people have to deal with 75+ different languages and some of these people have to deal with relationships with 100+ different governments and taxing authorities.

piva00 3y ago
And business relations in each of the markets. Marketing as well, editorial content, so on and so forth. I feel sometimes that a lot of the HN folks work on small-scale companies, releasing MVPs and don't have much of an idea about the operations side of a larger operation. It's easy to think in MVP terms, it's really, really hard to understand the nuances (and costs) that scaling that to hundreds of millions of users across dozens to hundred+ countries entail.
- no_wizard 3y ago
  I think its the WhatsApp effect, they had all of 55 employees[0] and were bought for 19 Billion USD (cash & stock but still). Never mind that the product that is WhatsApp is fairly unique in how it can be engineered [0]: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/whatsapps-55-employees-are-rich-so-now-what-n34851 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/whatsapps-55-employee...
  - CPLX 3y ago
    Yeah and also the simple literal fact that WhatsApp in fact ended up with tens of thousands of employees. Those who find the last sentence counterintuitive should stop to note that if you use WhatsApp today you're interacting with a company with tens of thousands of employees.
    - toyg 3y ago
      And is whatsapp now dramatically better than it was at acquisition time...? Maybe it's a bit better. Is it 10000x better, though? I used Whatsapp before and after, and I find it hard to believe. (One thing it's definitely better at, though: anything you say will almost instantaneously turn into an ad on the next website you visit.)
      - CPLX 3y ago
        As a product or a company? Pretty sure the combined entity that now includes WhatsApp is drastically more successful from a financial standpoint that the predecessor standalone company that comprised WhatsApp and had 55 employees.
- temporal828 3y ago
  Some of us work/worked for organizations doing hardware, marketing, sales to every corner of the planet and dealing with supply chain with 1/8 of that workforce though (more than 2 decades ago - productivity should be better now). Spinning this as anything more than gross overhiring that is going to correct either in dribs and drabs or spectacularly sounds like complete bullshit to those that had been around a few bust cycles and worked in other industries.
  - piva00 3y ago
    It all ends in speculation anyway, different industries have different sets of requirements, and regulatory frameworks. Different products at scale have different needs for maintenance and development. I know some people working with hardware with sales spanning most of the globe in a company with 300 employees, it doesn't mean you can have a phone manufacturer selling to most of the globe with just 300 employees. Of course there's some level of overhiring but whatever comment here saying that 1/10, or 1/2, or whatever other percentage is what is needed is baseless speculation on some non-informed guess. Without knowing the insides it's just baseless speculation, and even in the inside you'd need to be in a higher level of management to have a decent overview of what's waste (and why it's waste) vs what's actually needed.
  - surgical_fire 3y ago
    > organizations doing hardware, marketing, sales Still sounds simpler than what Spotify does. Just thinking about dealing with payment processing, regulatory environment of music licensing, customer support, and record labels around all countries on which they operate makes my head hurt a little. But then again, your bad take is the reason I keep coming back to HN. I always find it amusing how people here always seem to have all the answers for things they never worked with. Most of the times I think people being butthurt for whatever reason.
    - temporal828 3y ago
      > payment processing This is outsourced. > customer support "Can't find the solution you're looking for? Here's how to get help from our experts. Note: We currently don't offer support by phone." And half of what they do have is outsourced to "community members". > regulatory environment of music licensing This, this is what they do. So that's something. Is it 9600 people something? Apparently not since they already shaved off 6% of the work force earlier this year. It would seem their own CEO appears to agree with the take they are overweight. Selling hardware around the world has tremendous regulatory burden as well. If you can't imagine the complexities of designing, sourcing and selling hardware products around the world maybe think harder? Let the chips fall where they may. It isn't like it's the first or even biggest layoff for Spotify this year.

by CPLX 3y ago

piva00 3y ago

And business relations in each of the markets. Marketing as well, editorial content, so on and so forth. I feel sometimes that a lot of the HN folks work on small-scale companies, releasing MVPs and don't have much of an idea about the operations side of a larger operation. It's easy to think in MVP terms, it's really, really hard to understand the nuances (and costs) that scaling that to hundreds of millions of users across dozens to hundred+ countries entail.

no_wizard 3y ago
I think its the WhatsApp effect, they had all of 55 employees[0] and were bought for 19 Billion USD (cash & stock but still). Never mind that the product that is WhatsApp is fairly unique in how it can be engineered [0]: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/whatsapps-55-employees-are-rich-so-now-what-n34851 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/whatsapps-55-employee...
- CPLX 3y ago
  Yeah and also the simple literal fact that WhatsApp in fact ended up with tens of thousands of employees. Those who find the last sentence counterintuitive should stop to note that if you use WhatsApp today you're interacting with a company with tens of thousands of employees.
  - toyg 3y ago
    And is whatsapp now dramatically better than it was at acquisition time...? Maybe it's a bit better. Is it 10000x better, though? I used Whatsapp before and after, and I find it hard to believe. (One thing it's definitely better at, though: anything you say will almost instantaneously turn into an ad on the next website you visit.)
    - CPLX 3y ago
      As a product or a company? Pretty sure the combined entity that now includes WhatsApp is drastically more successful from a financial standpoint that the predecessor standalone company that comprised WhatsApp and had 55 employees.
temporal828 3y ago
Some of us work/worked for organizations doing hardware, marketing, sales to every corner of the planet and dealing with supply chain with 1/8 of that workforce though (more than 2 decades ago - productivity should be better now). Spinning this as anything more than gross overhiring that is going to correct either in dribs and drabs or spectacularly sounds like complete bullshit to those that had been around a few bust cycles and worked in other industries.
- piva00 3y ago
  It all ends in speculation anyway, different industries have different sets of requirements, and regulatory frameworks. Different products at scale have different needs for maintenance and development. I know some people working with hardware with sales spanning most of the globe in a company with 300 employees, it doesn't mean you can have a phone manufacturer selling to most of the globe with just 300 employees. Of course there's some level of overhiring but whatever comment here saying that 1/10, or 1/2, or whatever other percentage is what is needed is baseless speculation on some non-informed guess. Without knowing the insides it's just baseless speculation, and even in the inside you'd need to be in a higher level of management to have a decent overview of what's waste (and why it's waste) vs what's actually needed.
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  > organizations doing hardware, marketing, sales Still sounds simpler than what Spotify does. Just thinking about dealing with payment processing, regulatory environment of music licensing, customer support, and record labels around all countries on which they operate makes my head hurt a little. But then again, your bad take is the reason I keep coming back to HN. I always find it amusing how people here always seem to have all the answers for things they never worked with. Most of the times I think people being butthurt for whatever reason.
  - temporal828 3y ago
    > payment processing This is outsourced. > customer support "Can't find the solution you're looking for? Here's how to get help from our experts. Note: We currently don't offer support by phone." And half of what they do have is outsourced to "community members". > regulatory environment of music licensing This, this is what they do. So that's something. Is it 9600 people something? Apparently not since they already shaved off 6% of the work force earlier this year. It would seem their own CEO appears to agree with the take they are overweight. Selling hardware around the world has tremendous regulatory burden as well. If you can't imagine the complexities of designing, sourcing and selling hardware products around the world maybe think harder? Let the chips fall where they may. It isn't like it's the first or even biggest layoff for Spotify this year.