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This is poorly informed. There are many viable alternatives for these researchers. For starters, all the other academic institutions! Which have their own prob

This is poorly informed. There are many viable alternatives for these researchers. For starters, all the other academic institutions! Which have their own problems, but have been increasing salaries for graduate students and post docs in response to organization (eg Penn just raised biomedical postdoc salaries in large part because of the threat of unionization, and in large part because of the competitive threat of other institutions who’ve increased salaries). But beyond that, private sector is absolutely a viable alternative. People don’t make their choices in a vacuum, they choose the academia path because it fits their long term goal and it’s worth the short term costs. It’s also not even remotely true that being an MD is the first choice for researchers: of the people I know in research at prestigious institutions, it is a mix of MD-PhDs and people who only ever wanted to do research. There’s absolutely not some huge population of thwarted doctors getting prestigious postdoc positions.

KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
Outside of the overfunded Ivies, Stanford and MIT, most other state schools and academic institutions do not have the ability to absorb the sheer quantity of researchers employed by NIH. > It’s also not even remotely true that being an MD is the first choice for researchers You should try talking to some actual graduates in the life sciences department at your local state school, and not just MD-PHDs. I am willing to bet money that the number of non-medical biology researchers whose number one choice is medicine outnumbers wannabe researchers.
- matthewowen 3y ago
  My wife is nearing the end of her postdoc (cell biology). I’ve known her since she was 18 years old. She never wanted to be an MD. Neither did the colleagues of hers I talked to.
  - KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
    Try a bigger sample size. I have seen countless life science graduates switch into software engineering precisely because of medical school admissions and the rest of the industry and academia being a career dead end.
    - maxbond 3y ago
      You told them they should talk to some life sciences graduates. They relayed that they knew several such people. And now you're telling them the experiment you proposed is anecdotal and not meaningful, seemingly because it didn't produce the result you wanted. Another approach would have been to say, "interesting, my experience differs," and then to compare notes. For instance, is it the case that you're a software engineer who occasionally meets people who've pivoted into software engineering from life sciences? That could be a very different sample than someone who's spouse has successfully gained traction in the field (with neither being representative, as they're subject to complementary survivorship biases). Seems likely to me that there's something to be learned from both perspectives here.
- HDMI_Cable 3y ago
  > You should try talking to some actual graduates in the life sciences department at your local state school, and not just MD-PHDs. I am willing to bet money that the number of non-medical biology researchers whose number one choice is medicine outnumbers wannabe researchers. I want to credit your point and believe what you're saying, but the burden of proof is on you to give evidence that most Biology researchers want to be in medicine.
- shpongled 3y ago
  > You should try talking to some actual graduates in the life sciences department at your local state school, and not just MD-PHDs. I am willing to bet money that the number of non-medical biology researchers whose number one choice is medicine outnumbers wannabe researchers. As a biochem PhD holder, you're really gonna have to back this up.
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  It is common knowledge in the local community that many of the post docs at Tulane medical school qualify for food stamps.
- CatWChainsaw 3y ago
  > actual graduates in the life sciences department at your local state school, and not just MD-PHDs That's me, graduate of a life science department at MD, microbiology not medical biology. Guess what, I always wanted to do research. Definitely didn't want to be a doctor, especially if a someone like, well, you, ended up being my patient. That makes three anecdotes to counter your assertion. You gonna pay up or move the goalposts a little more?
dguest 3y ago
I agree with your last point. I suspect MD is a popular option because it has job stability and good pay (which is likely related to the scarcity of MDs in the US). In my field (another type of research) a lot of people "want" to be professors, but when I talk to them there's no interest in teaching or doing administrative work, they just want job stability. If research jobs were stable they would happily spend the rest of their lives doing research.

KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago

Outside of the overfunded Ivies, Stanford and MIT, most other state schools and academic institutions do not have the ability to absorb the sheer quantity of researchers employed by NIH. > It’s also not even remotely true that being an MD is the first choice for researchers You should try talking to some actual graduates in the life sciences department at your local state school, and not just MD-PHDs. I am willing to bet money that the number of non-medical biology researchers whose number one choice is medicine outnumbers wannabe researchers.

matthewowen 3y ago
My wife is nearing the end of her postdoc (cell biology). I’ve known her since she was 18 years old. She never wanted to be an MD. Neither did the colleagues of hers I talked to.
- KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
  Try a bigger sample size. I have seen countless life science graduates switch into software engineering precisely because of medical school admissions and the rest of the industry and academia being a career dead end.
  - maxbond 3y ago
    You told them they should talk to some life sciences graduates. They relayed that they knew several such people. And now you're telling them the experiment you proposed is anecdotal and not meaningful, seemingly because it didn't produce the result you wanted. Another approach would have been to say, "interesting, my experience differs," and then to compare notes. For instance, is it the case that you're a software engineer who occasionally meets people who've pivoted into software engineering from life sciences? That could be a very different sample than someone who's spouse has successfully gained traction in the field (with neither being representative, as they're subject to complementary survivorship biases). Seems likely to me that there's something to be learned from both perspectives here.
HDMI_Cable 3y ago
> You should try talking to some actual graduates in the life sciences department at your local state school, and not just MD-PHDs. I am willing to bet money that the number of non-medical biology researchers whose number one choice is medicine outnumbers wannabe researchers. I want to credit your point and believe what you're saying, but the burden of proof is on you to give evidence that most Biology researchers want to be in medicine.
shpongled 3y ago
> You should try talking to some actual graduates in the life sciences department at your local state school, and not just MD-PHDs. I am willing to bet money that the number of non-medical biology researchers whose number one choice is medicine outnumbers wannabe researchers. As a biochem PhD holder, you're really gonna have to back this up.
selimthegrim 3y ago
It is common knowledge in the local community that many of the post docs at Tulane medical school qualify for food stamps.
CatWChainsaw 3y ago
> actual graduates in the life sciences department at your local state school, and not just MD-PHDs That's me, graduate of a life science department at MD, microbiology not medical biology. Guess what, I always wanted to do research. Definitely didn't want to be a doctor, especially if a someone like, well, you, ended up being my patient. That makes three anecdotes to counter your assertion. You gonna pay up or move the goalposts a little more?

dguest 3y ago

I agree with your last point. I suspect MD is a popular option because it has job stability and good pay (which is likely related to the scarcity of MDs in the US). In my field (another type of research) a lot of people "want" to be professors, but when I talk to them there's no interest in teaching or doing administrative work, they just want job stability. If research jobs were stable they would happily spend the rest of their lives doing research.