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> I predict these children will have more social issues in adulthood and thrive less well than those who had smartphones when they were younger. As if banning

> I predict these children will have more social issues in adulthood and thrive less well than those who had smartphones when they were younger. As if banning phones until 13 is really going to have that kind of impact. Come on. Those poor kids, can't get on TikTok.

lmm 3y ago
> As if banning phones until 13 is really going to have that kind of impact. Come on. Those poor kids, can't get on TikTok. When did you first get access to a computer? How has that affected your subsequent life and career?
- rlt 3y ago
  What are the things you think can only be done on a smartphone, not a laptop, that are so important for kids to learn early?
  - lmm 3y ago
    Do you think these kids are going to get access to laptops? But to answer the question: patterns of socialization that their peers will follow. How to work around surveillance and filtering. How (and why) to jailbreak locked hardware.
    - za3faran 3y ago
      Patterns of socialization meaning what exactly?
      - joseda-hg 3y ago
        People outside the no-smartphone group will develop specific ways of interacting, which you only "get" when you participate Stuff you can't even know you're missing out, because you don't know what you don't know Maybe calling someone without a heads up is considered rude, or ending sentences with a period is considered passive aggressive, maybe responding to someone right away is considered desperate or using certain words is okay IRL but not online I agree that kids having smartphones is not good, but isolating an individual or small group from ostensibly the rest of the world in inconsistent ways that may interact in even worse ways is something you should be careful with, you might just be marking them for life
- Foobar8568 3y ago
  Playing video games (mid 80s) from primary school, chatting online (mid 90s), relatively low mother tongue langage but still better than people 10year younger than me, totally failed studies and career far from my potential, but still not too chubby. People thinking that an electronic device is good for a kid and it's just a matter of self control or parenting has a fairly strong biais and never spent time with a kid or forgot what is it to be one.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    >forgot what is it to be one. Most adults seem to forget all their memories of their childhood, particularly if they become parents at which point they forget everything instantly. I'm not sure why this is, what this phenomenon is called (if it has a name), and I would sincerely appreciate a scientific explanation if there is one. I still remember my childhood from about 4 years old onward as a guy in his mid 30s, so I simply can't relate to it.
    - cseleborg 3y ago
      Yes, I find that I not only can't easily recall what my own experience as a kid was like, I also reproduce a lot of my parents' behaviors.
  - lmm 3y ago
    On the contrary, my experience of being a kid is exactly why I'm convinced this is good for them. As a bullied kid I'm pretty sure computer access literally saved my life, and I've consistently seen that the younger someone got on the internet the healthier their relationship with it is.
    - Foobar8568 3y ago
      An escape from reality is far from a good solution. Although I also think that computer access is much better than a cellphone, I strongly believe that parental control is not the correct way, and need several layers of protections. First one being, is your kid feeling safe enough with you to discuss any topics? I know I couldn't. I have seen way too many kids having already social media pressure, including my own kid with a fairly low level of screen time across the board (I'd say 4h-8h a week maximum including a movie on Sunday morning, depending if she wants to play around with python or some GT7) this allows also some interesting discussions.
- za3faran 3y ago
  Computers pre-social media were different. You could do a lot offline. Today, social media has been proven to be extremely toxic. There was a paper submitted to HN that mentions how much worse mental health is the earlier a child gets a cell phone[1]. Today children have unrestricted access to God knows what is on the internet and social media. This is not a recipe for success. Parents need to get involved. [1] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/sapien-smartphone-report https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/sapien-smartphone-repor...
- bluescrn 3y ago
  Had no internet access until 18 (mid-90s), No mobile phone until 22. My physical and mental health has declined significantly since I've been 'always online'. Learning new skills in an age of endless distractions is harder too, despite the amount of educational resources online that should make it easier. When I got hooked on WoW in my 30s, it was very obvious that there were a lot of students sacrificing their education to their gaming habits. And this was before social media really took off, with its 24/7 narcissism and tribal warfare.
- tlear 3y ago
  Computers we had access to did not have ML generated crack being served by every app on them. Even so I had addiction issues, thank god this was before ML. And no I did not have access to my parent's bar to drink vodka and brandy whenever I felt like as a 12 year old to "prepare me to real world".
- logical_ferry 3y ago
  Computer != smartphone. Social media == smartphone.
9dev 3y ago
Everyone in the room is laughing. „What is it?“ - „Oh, Jimmy just sent a meme. You wouldn’t get it“. How does that feel like? Trouble is, you’re way too old to understand the implications of not being in touch with your social group. If everyone else is in the loop but you’re not, your dead, socially. If you’re especially unlucky, you’ll be treated as the weirdo outcast with Luddite parents. You cannot imagine how mean kids are. This problem is bigger than you think. Having to live through years of shaming and being alone causes trouble later in life.
- bentley 3y ago
  Kids are cruel and if they have a mind to it will make fun of literally anything. I was a social outcast in school, where favorite jokes of the other kids were that I was overweight, that I was inept at sports, that I wore glasses, that my shirts had collars, that my only shoes were cleats, that my socks were black instead of white, that I wore briefs instead of boxers. Funnily enough, though I grew up in the ’90s–’00s with parents who disliked TV and popular movies and heavily restricted media consumption in the household, nobody at school ever made fun of the fact that I’d never seen Friends or The Matrix. Later when I was in college I often saw people who’d grown up with access to popular media saying they’d feel socially deprived if they didn’t watch the latest new show. Personally I didn’t feel deprived, either at the time or in retrospect, even though today I greatly enjoy catching up on movies I never watched. I think there’s something to the idea that some restriction, particularly in childhood, can be healthy.
  - 9dev 3y ago
    Wouldn’t you agree that suffering as a child has effects on your adult life? I’m absolutely convinced that some restrictions are good, and not blindly following what the cool kids are doing too. But some people here seem to be blissfully unaware of the consequences harassment has on children.
    - bentley 3y ago
      My point is that if bullies weren’t making life hell for kids without smartphones, they’d be making kids’ life hell for some other irrelevant reason. I see no reason to believe that the bullying situation will be made worse by removing phones from the equation. If I had a time machine, maybe I’d give my seventh‐grade self white socks and boxer shorts and see if that made any difference.

lmm 3y ago

> As if banning phones until 13 is really going to have that kind of impact. Come on. Those poor kids, can't get on TikTok. When did you first get access to a computer? How has that affected your subsequent life and career?

rlt 3y ago
What are the things you think can only be done on a smartphone, not a laptop, that are so important for kids to learn early?
- lmm 3y ago
  Do you think these kids are going to get access to laptops? But to answer the question: patterns of socialization that their peers will follow. How to work around surveillance and filtering. How (and why) to jailbreak locked hardware.
  - za3faran 3y ago
    Patterns of socialization meaning what exactly?
    - joseda-hg 3y ago
      People outside the no-smartphone group will develop specific ways of interacting, which you only "get" when you participate Stuff you can't even know you're missing out, because you don't know what you don't know Maybe calling someone without a heads up is considered rude, or ending sentences with a period is considered passive aggressive, maybe responding to someone right away is considered desperate or using certain words is okay IRL but not online I agree that kids having smartphones is not good, but isolating an individual or small group from ostensibly the rest of the world in inconsistent ways that may interact in even worse ways is something you should be careful with, you might just be marking them for life
Foobar8568 3y ago
Playing video games (mid 80s) from primary school, chatting online (mid 90s), relatively low mother tongue langage but still better than people 10year younger than me, totally failed studies and career far from my potential, but still not too chubby. People thinking that an electronic device is good for a kid and it's just a matter of self control or parenting has a fairly strong biais and never spent time with a kid or forgot what is it to be one.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  >forgot what is it to be one. Most adults seem to forget all their memories of their childhood, particularly if they become parents at which point they forget everything instantly. I'm not sure why this is, what this phenomenon is called (if it has a name), and I would sincerely appreciate a scientific explanation if there is one. I still remember my childhood from about 4 years old onward as a guy in his mid 30s, so I simply can't relate to it.
  - cseleborg 3y ago
    Yes, I find that I not only can't easily recall what my own experience as a kid was like, I also reproduce a lot of my parents' behaviors.
- lmm 3y ago
  On the contrary, my experience of being a kid is exactly why I'm convinced this is good for them. As a bullied kid I'm pretty sure computer access literally saved my life, and I've consistently seen that the younger someone got on the internet the healthier their relationship with it is.
  - Foobar8568 3y ago
    An escape from reality is far from a good solution. Although I also think that computer access is much better than a cellphone, I strongly believe that parental control is not the correct way, and need several layers of protections. First one being, is your kid feeling safe enough with you to discuss any topics? I know I couldn't. I have seen way too many kids having already social media pressure, including my own kid with a fairly low level of screen time across the board (I'd say 4h-8h a week maximum including a movie on Sunday morning, depending if she wants to play around with python or some GT7) this allows also some interesting discussions.
za3faran 3y ago
Computers pre-social media were different. You could do a lot offline. Today, social media has been proven to be extremely toxic. There was a paper submitted to HN that mentions how much worse mental health is the earlier a child gets a cell phone[1]. Today children have unrestricted access to God knows what is on the internet and social media. This is not a recipe for success. Parents need to get involved. [1] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/sapien-smartphone-report https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/sapien-smartphone-repor...
bluescrn 3y ago
Had no internet access until 18 (mid-90s), No mobile phone until 22. My physical and mental health has declined significantly since I've been 'always online'. Learning new skills in an age of endless distractions is harder too, despite the amount of educational resources online that should make it easier. When I got hooked on WoW in my 30s, it was very obvious that there were a lot of students sacrificing their education to their gaming habits. And this was before social media really took off, with its 24/7 narcissism and tribal warfare.
tlear 3y ago
Computers we had access to did not have ML generated crack being served by every app on them. Even so I had addiction issues, thank god this was before ML. And no I did not have access to my parent's bar to drink vodka and brandy whenever I felt like as a 12 year old to "prepare me to real world".
logical_ferry 3y ago
Computer != smartphone. Social media == smartphone.

9dev 3y ago

Everyone in the room is laughing. „What is it?“ - „Oh, Jimmy just sent a meme. You wouldn’t get it“. How does that feel like? Trouble is, you’re way too old to understand the implications of not being in touch with your social group. If everyone else is in the loop but you’re not, your dead, socially. If you’re especially unlucky, you’ll be treated as the weirdo outcast with Luddite parents. You cannot imagine how mean kids are. This problem is bigger than you think. Having to live through years of shaming and being alone causes trouble later in life.

bentley 3y ago
Kids are cruel and if they have a mind to it will make fun of literally anything. I was a social outcast in school, where favorite jokes of the other kids were that I was overweight, that I was inept at sports, that I wore glasses, that my shirts had collars, that my only shoes were cleats, that my socks were black instead of white, that I wore briefs instead of boxers. Funnily enough, though I grew up in the ’90s–’00s with parents who disliked TV and popular movies and heavily restricted media consumption in the household, nobody at school ever made fun of the fact that I’d never seen Friends or The Matrix. Later when I was in college I often saw people who’d grown up with access to popular media saying they’d feel socially deprived if they didn’t watch the latest new show. Personally I didn’t feel deprived, either at the time or in retrospect, even though today I greatly enjoy catching up on movies I never watched. I think there’s something to the idea that some restriction, particularly in childhood, can be healthy.
- 9dev 3y ago
  Wouldn’t you agree that suffering as a child has effects on your adult life? I’m absolutely convinced that some restrictions are good, and not blindly following what the cool kids are doing too. But some people here seem to be blissfully unaware of the consequences harassment has on children.
  - bentley 3y ago
    My point is that if bullies weren’t making life hell for kids without smartphones, they’d be making kids’ life hell for some other irrelevant reason. I see no reason to believe that the bullying situation will be made worse by removing phones from the equation. If I had a time machine, maybe I’d give my seventh‐grade self white socks and boxer shorts and see if that made any difference.