5 ms·

Public Schools stopped disciplining kids long ago. Fear of retribution, legal action, and a mountain of headaches from all angles. Why would anyone want to teac

Public Schools stopped disciplining kids long ago. Fear of retribution, legal action, and a mountain of headaches from all angles. Why would anyone want to teach these days?

Scalene2 3y ago
What exactly do you mean when you say "disciplining"?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- EGreg 3y ago
  Corporal punishment or shaming in front of others https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_i... Other ways included a time out, suspension or talk to the parents where parents grounded them, or punished them somehow. All that has been phased out in most places for various reasons. Although nearly half of the US states still allow it: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/09/18/19-states-still-allow-corporal-punishment-in-school/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/09/... To me it is definitely telling that the US Supreme Court found it constitutional and legal to administer corporal punishment by drawing analogies with prisoners in a jail. As in the pg essay “Why Nerds are Unpopular”, primary school is essentially a prison for the kids, a glorified day care center to keep them out of trouble while parents can work. But elsewhere in many districts if the parent doesnt care then there are literally no consequences for children who disrupt classes, that don’t backfire badly on those who would try to make those consequences.
  - jdietrich 3y ago
    Good luck trying to administer corporal punishment to a young man who is bigger, fitter and stronger than you, has already demonstrated a willingness to use violence against you and has a room full of willing accomplices. I hope that anyone foolish enough to try it has good healthcare.
    - CapricornNoble 3y ago
      > Good luck trying to administer corporal punishment to a young man who is bigger, fitter and stronger than you Why are teenage boys bigger, fitter and stronger than the teachers? Maybe because ~75% of teachers are women? There's value in the ability of physically-capable adult males to quietly intimidate adolescents. There's value in well-rounded men who can provide classroom instruction but maybe also coach the boxing/powerlifting/wrestling teams. The next time Mr. Smith puts some bass in his voice and tells you to sit down and stop disrupting class, there should be a voice in the back of your head that says "I should do that, because he just might uppercut me into the stratosphere". I suspect that students aren't learning the principle of "Fuck Around and Find Out" from ANY authority figure in their daily lives. Our society as a whole seems to have forgotten the importance of male role models IMO...
      - pasabagi 3y ago
        Yeah, a guy who 'might uppercut me' sounds like a great male role model. You could probably get Andrew Tate in for the job, once he's out of jail.
        CapricornNoble 3y ago
        >a guy who 'might uppercut me' sounds like a great male role model On average, men are more likely to aspire to be Thor or Captain Marvel than they are to be Rick Moranis's character in Ghostbusters. They are more likely to take guidance from a larger, stronger, and more assertive man than otherwise. The military has already figured this out, just look at the stereotypical Drill Instructor for an extreme example of the concept. Do you dispute this, or are you simply speaking of what works/doesn't work for you as an individual? A single anecdote doesn't really tell us much about what society-wide initiatives we should pursue. Also, Andrew Tate is already out of jail and currently under house arrest.
        pasabagi 3y ago
        Sure I dispute it, but that's not my point. You want schools to teach children the values of the society they will go on to contribute to. If you want them to internalize the idea that guys with big arms and gravelly voices have more authority than little women or effeminate academic types, then your idea has merit. That's what we did in the past. If you want them to value competence, then your idea is absolute garbage. I'm very happy we've moved past the point where you have to have a pair of testicles to be taken seriously as an authority figure. Obviously, some really hide-bound institutions like the military haven't completely internalized that, but then, that could be why militaries underperform. Russia, for example, has a very macho military, and (surprise!) it sucks.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  Expulsion and suspension. I know a teacher who works in a school with this problem; state DOE policies puniah schools for suspending or expelling violent children, so instead they are allowed to continue terrorizing their peers and instrucrors.
dmvdoug 3y ago
You’re wrong, of course, but not entirely. I’m a teacher at an urban Title I school (over 70% of our students qualify for reduced or free school lunches). Yes, there is a lot of paperwork involved when you need to transfer student to alternative school or outright expel them. It’s only an issue though when you don’t document what’s happening along the way. And of course, documentation is not a bad thing. It would be a bad thing if kids were being run out of schools at the whims of tired, overworked, extremely stressed teachers. On the other hand, the really wacky stuff comes when it’s a special education student. You literally cannot suspend them for more than 10 days in a school year. I was the general education teacher in FBA meetings for three of my SpEd students who brought weapons to school (two knives, one taser). The result was to put them all on a functional behavioral plan which requires weekly reports about whether they are meeting FB targets: of not bringing weapons to school. The plan included that when they did meet their targets, they should be rewarded in certain ways, like being given time on a computer or time to speak with their friends or whatever. So, yeah. Rewards for… not bringing weapons. Now that was crazy.
dmvdoug 3y ago
> Why would anyone want to teach these days? Now let me answer this question more directly. It’s actually worse than a lot of people think. There is an intense and overwhelming amount of utter bullshit that gets rolled down the hill starting with Congress, added to by state legislatures, and further reinforced by local school districts. And of course teachers are at the bottom of the hill. When you focus on that, and all the ways that the system is utterly dysfunctional, and not beneficial for students, it can be defeating. But when you focus on your job, which is students, it’s the single most rewarding thing you can do, in my judgment. I was a lawyer for 5-6 years before getting into education. I hated every day of my life. Now I wake up excited to see my students and be with them. It’s genuine fulfillment I never thought I would have in my life. So, if you can withstand all the bullshit, and there is a metric shit ton of it for sure, it’s an amazing job. If you can’t stand up for yourself, or if you can’t deal with irrational requirements imposed by people fully out of touch with reality—-if you can’t, in other words, set aside, or ignore to the maximum extent possible, dealing with other adults, you should definitely avoid it. I can do those things. Becoming a teacher was the single best decision I’ve ever made.
- triceratops 3y ago
  You're a saint. I meant that sincerely.
  - dmvdoug 3y ago
    I'm not, of course, but I appreciate the sentiment. :)
- inconceivable 3y ago
  sounds like having a law degree and lawyering experience is the perfect background.
- uxcolumbo 3y ago
  In your view, what are the key (realistic) things to fix this?
  - 3y ago

Public Schools stopped disciplining kids long ago. Fear of retribution, legal action, and a mountain of headaches from all angles. Why would anyone want to teach these days?

Scalene2 3y ago

What exactly do you mean when you say "disciplining"?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
EGreg 3y ago
Corporal punishment or shaming in front of others https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_i... Other ways included a time out, suspension or talk to the parents where parents grounded them, or punished them somehow. All that has been phased out in most places for various reasons. Although nearly half of the US states still allow it: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/09/18/19-states-still-allow-corporal-punishment-in-school/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/09/... To me it is definitely telling that the US Supreme Court found it constitutional and legal to administer corporal punishment by drawing analogies with prisoners in a jail. As in the pg essay “Why Nerds are Unpopular”, primary school is essentially a prison for the kids, a glorified day care center to keep them out of trouble while parents can work. But elsewhere in many districts if the parent doesnt care then there are literally no consequences for children who disrupt classes, that don’t backfire badly on those who would try to make those consequences.
- jdietrich 3y ago
  Good luck trying to administer corporal punishment to a young man who is bigger, fitter and stronger than you, has already demonstrated a willingness to use violence against you and has a room full of willing accomplices. I hope that anyone foolish enough to try it has good healthcare.
  - CapricornNoble 3y ago
    > Good luck trying to administer corporal punishment to a young man who is bigger, fitter and stronger than you Why are teenage boys bigger, fitter and stronger than the teachers? Maybe because ~75% of teachers are women? There's value in the ability of physically-capable adult males to quietly intimidate adolescents. There's value in well-rounded men who can provide classroom instruction but maybe also coach the boxing/powerlifting/wrestling teams. The next time Mr. Smith puts some bass in his voice and tells you to sit down and stop disrupting class, there should be a voice in the back of your head that says "I should do that, because he just might uppercut me into the stratosphere". I suspect that students aren't learning the principle of "Fuck Around and Find Out" from ANY authority figure in their daily lives. Our society as a whole seems to have forgotten the importance of male role models IMO...
    - pasabagi 3y ago
      Yeah, a guy who 'might uppercut me' sounds like a great male role model. You could probably get Andrew Tate in for the job, once he's out of jail.
      - CapricornNoble 3y ago
        >a guy who 'might uppercut me' sounds like a great male role model On average, men are more likely to aspire to be Thor or Captain Marvel than they are to be Rick Moranis's character in Ghostbusters. They are more likely to take guidance from a larger, stronger, and more assertive man than otherwise. The military has already figured this out, just look at the stereotypical Drill Instructor for an extreme example of the concept. Do you dispute this, or are you simply speaking of what works/doesn't work for you as an individual? A single anecdote doesn't really tell us much about what society-wide initiatives we should pursue. Also, Andrew Tate is already out of jail and currently under house arrest.
        pasabagi 3y ago
        Sure I dispute it, but that's not my point. You want schools to teach children the values of the society they will go on to contribute to. If you want them to internalize the idea that guys with big arms and gravelly voices have more authority than little women or effeminate academic types, then your idea has merit. That's what we did in the past. If you want them to value competence, then your idea is absolute garbage. I'm very happy we've moved past the point where you have to have a pair of testicles to be taken seriously as an authority figure. Obviously, some really hide-bound institutions like the military haven't completely internalized that, but then, that could be why militaries underperform. Russia, for example, has a very macho military, and (surprise!) it sucks.
Georgelemental 3y ago
Expulsion and suspension. I know a teacher who works in a school with this problem; state DOE policies puniah schools for suspending or expelling violent children, so instead they are allowed to continue terrorizing their peers and instrucrors.

dmvdoug 3y ago

You’re wrong, of course, but not entirely. I’m a teacher at an urban Title I school (over 70% of our students qualify for reduced or free school lunches). Yes, there is a lot of paperwork involved when you need to transfer student to alternative school or outright expel them. It’s only an issue though when you don’t document what’s happening along the way. And of course, documentation is not a bad thing. It would be a bad thing if kids were being run out of schools at the whims of tired, overworked, extremely stressed teachers. On the other hand, the really wacky stuff comes when it’s a special education student. You literally cannot suspend them for more than 10 days in a school year. I was the general education teacher in FBA meetings for three of my SpEd students who brought weapons to school (two knives, one taser). The result was to put them all on a functional behavioral plan which requires weekly reports about whether they are meeting FB targets: of not bringing weapons to school. The plan included that when they did meet their targets, they should be rewarded in certain ways, like being given time on a computer or time to speak with their friends or whatever. So, yeah. Rewards for… not bringing weapons. Now that was crazy.

dmvdoug 3y ago

> Why would anyone want to teach these days? Now let me answer this question more directly. It’s actually worse than a lot of people think. There is an intense and overwhelming amount of utter bullshit that gets rolled down the hill starting with Congress, added to by state legislatures, and further reinforced by local school districts. And of course teachers are at the bottom of the hill. When you focus on that, and all the ways that the system is utterly dysfunctional, and not beneficial for students, it can be defeating. But when you focus on your job, which is students, it’s the single most rewarding thing you can do, in my judgment. I was a lawyer for 5-6 years before getting into education. I hated every day of my life. Now I wake up excited to see my students and be with them. It’s genuine fulfillment I never thought I would have in my life. So, if you can withstand all the bullshit, and there is a metric shit ton of it for sure, it’s an amazing job. If you can’t stand up for yourself, or if you can’t deal with irrational requirements imposed by people fully out of touch with reality—-if you can’t, in other words, set aside, or ignore to the maximum extent possible, dealing with other adults, you should definitely avoid it. I can do those things. Becoming a teacher was the single best decision I’ve ever made.

triceratops 3y ago
You're a saint. I meant that sincerely.
- dmvdoug 3y ago
  I'm not, of course, but I appreciate the sentiment. :)
inconceivable 3y ago
sounds like having a law degree and lawyering experience is the perfect background.
uxcolumbo 3y ago
In your view, what are the key (realistic) things to fix this?
- 3y ago