8 ms·

The book banning and restrictions on content in classrooms in Florida are further examples of people being fine with restrictions on speech. At this point it's

The book banning and restrictions on content in classrooms in Florida are further examples of people being fine with restrictions on speech. At this point it's pretty disingenuous to lay the blame entirely on the left, or the young.

mellosouls 3y ago
No, the overwhelming dominance in cancel culture over the last few years has been from the left. Sure, the right has also been up to its old tricks in tired corners (it dominated in previous times like the McCarthy era), but lets be realistic about who the modern problem is mainly with in the West or we won't solve it.
- dmbche 3y ago
  What books were banned by "the left"?
  - mellosouls 3y ago
    I was commenting on "restrictions on speech", of which book banning is a historically symbolic example but less relevant in the modern age. In the West the left has dominated restricting speech.
    - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
      Like the famously left-wing Nazi's bookburning?
      - throw0101b 3y ago
        > Like the famously left-wing Nazi's bookburning? Like the famously left-wing CCP book burning: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_censorship_in_China#Mao_Zedong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_censorship_in_China#Mao_Z... Authoritarians exists on the left as well: * https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/psychological-dimensions-left-wing-authoritarianism/620185/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/psychologi...
      - mellosouls 3y ago
        "of which book banning is a historically symbolic example" so yes, that's why I used the word "historically" and... "(it dominated in previous times like the McCarthy era)" ...noted the dominance of the right in previous decades.
    - TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - spondylosaurus 3y ago
        I'd even argue that the wave of anti-drag legislation hitting the US right now is an attack on free expression akin to free speech. (What gives state legislature the right to ban me from putting on too much makeup and lip syncing to Madonna?)
        mansion7 3y ago
        It's the very peculiar, very strenuous insistence that children watch, and participate, as men cavort in women's clothes in a sexually charged manner. Followed by the vilification of people with quite reasonable concerns as "transphobes" (a fireable, deplatformable, censorable offense) and "Nazis" (who have been deemed acceptable targets of unprovoked violence). But for that, most Americans would go back to not caring. Regrettably, some don't understand the concept of boundaries or restraint, or think it doesn't apply to them. Possibly because we have many in the media/entertainment industry, government, and education system telling them that they're right.
        spondylosaurus 3y ago
        What? You're implying a lot of things here, so I'm struggling to follow all of them, but I find it especially odd to suggest that being anti-Nazi is somehow unfair to them or otherwise unprovoked. I can think of at least one rather conspicuous example of a time when Nazis "started it," so to speak. Some of my relatives didn't make it out of that one.
        lostlogin 3y ago
        Your comment read better when it was just ‘What?’ I’d suggest just moving on - a look at comment history has a couple of similar comments.
    - dmbche 3y ago
      What speech is restricted? I have nothing I can't say as long as it's not hateful/diffamatory, and if I do say it I can be sued for damages. What are we referring to?
  - jl6 3y ago
    Do research papers count as books? https://unherd.com/2023/04/did-city-uni-censor-my-gender-research/ https://unherd.com/2023/04/did-city-uni-censor-my-gender-res... This one’s hilarious/tragic because the censored paper was researching censorship.
  - indy 3y ago
    "the left" is perhaps too broad a group, but definitely amongst the progressive liberal left there are now examples of editing particular books to remove problematic terms. I'd consider this an even more insidious attack on free speech than outright banning books.
    - lostlogin 3y ago
      > “the left" is perhaps too broad a group When a political system has two parties, this is exactly what one would expect. The book ban proponents and book editors are likely a tiny fraction of the population. However in a two party system, they are part of their party. This is what you get.
  - throw0101b 3y ago
    > What books were banned by "the left"? Not banning but altering would be one form of censorship, e.g., "Roald Dahl books rewritten to remove language deemed offensive": * https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/18/roald-dahl-books-rewritten-to-remove-language-deemed-offensive https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/18/roald-dahl-boo... "Why I Decided to Update the Language in Ursula K. Le Guin’s Children’s Books": * https://lithub.com/why-i-decided-to-update-the-language-in-ursula-k-le-guins-childrens-books/ https://lithub.com/why-i-decided-to-update-the-language-in-u... "D&D: WotC’s New Batch Of Errata Removes Racial Alignments, Retcons Drow": * https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/12/dd-wotc-removes-racial-alignments-retcons-drow-in-new-batch-of-errata.html https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/12/dd-wotc-removes-raci... To quote George Orwell's 1984: "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." The past is being rewritten (as opposed to leaving the original language and simply putting a forward in explaining things).
    - tshaddox 3y ago
      Weren’t all of those changes done willingly by the publishers/copyright holders of those works?
      - throw0101b 3y ago
        Maybe, maybe not; it's hard to tell: how many folks are willing to stake their livelihood on saying "no" to a potential mob of progressives that will 'cancel' them? Saying to them "what is written is written; make your own (new) stories with the words you want".
        tshaddox 3y ago
        Then it sounds like you’re just describing normal persuasion, rather than using state power or violence. At that point, the heart of the disagreement isn’t over methodology (“censorship is bad”) or broad human rights (“freedom of speech is good”), but simply over whether you personally like the first version of the book or the new version.
    - djur 3y ago
  - cubefox 3y ago
    Free speech is not just about not banning books. Things like cancel culture and social media censorship are mainly left-wing phenomena.
  - revelio 3y ago
    [flagged]
- andrewflnr 3y ago
  [flagged]
- archagon 3y ago
  Hmm… and how do you propose to “solve” the problem of “the left”?
- mcv 3y ago
  > No, the overwhelming dominance in cancel culture over the last few years has been from the left. That's the popular story, but I constantly see evidence that it's overwhelmingly coming from the right.
jl6 3y ago
Different debate. Those authors were not restricted from publishing their books. The Florida issue is about what kind of material is suitable for children to access.
- mindslight 3y ago
  It's actually not. You can make the same distinction by saying web commenters aren't restricted from writing whatever posts they want, and the debate is about what kind of material is suitable for centralized websites to facilitate. Really, the larger ideal of free speech is about the desired orthogonality of distribution channels versus content, and general tolerance for things we dislike. We see the results of its diminishing the strongest where the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't legally apply due to these kinds of distinctions.
  - jl6 3y ago
    The key element that makes it a different debate is the involvement of children. There is widespread precedent for children to have limited rights and responsibilities, and limiting what media they have access to is entirely commonplace and not done to curtail speech.
    - mindslight 3y ago
      First, Reddit is used by plenty of children (regardless of COPPA). Many have tacit approval of their parents, who don't look too hard at what Reddit contains past the front page. And Reddit most certainly wants to be a place for children (age 13-17). So what children have access to is part of both issues. Second, does this "Florida issue" include provisions for parents of children that want their children to be able to access those books, to opt out of the restrictions in question? If not, then one can't say the topic is entirely limited to the traditional role of parents deciding what is right for their children. Rather it's also about about controlling what other people's children might read. Ultimately, both topics are about filtering distribution channels, based on criteria the distribution channel managers deem appropriate - with free speech concerns hinging on how much those distribution channels end up affecting what gets perceived as the total market.

mellosouls 3y ago

No, the overwhelming dominance in cancel culture over the last few years has been from the left. Sure, the right has also been up to its old tricks in tired corners (it dominated in previous times like the McCarthy era), but lets be realistic about who the modern problem is mainly with in the West or we won't solve it.

dmbche 3y ago
What books were banned by "the left"?
- mellosouls 3y ago
  I was commenting on "restrictions on speech", of which book banning is a historically symbolic example but less relevant in the modern age. In the West the left has dominated restricting speech.
  - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
    Like the famously left-wing Nazi's bookburning?
    - throw0101b 3y ago
      > Like the famously left-wing Nazi's bookburning? Like the famously left-wing CCP book burning: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_censorship_in_China#Mao_Zedong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_censorship_in_China#Mao_Z... Authoritarians exists on the left as well: * https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/psychological-dimensions-left-wing-authoritarianism/620185/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/psychologi...
    - mellosouls 3y ago
      "of which book banning is a historically symbolic example" so yes, that's why I used the word "historically" and... "(it dominated in previous times like the McCarthy era)" ...noted the dominance of the right in previous decades.
  - TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - spondylosaurus 3y ago
      I'd even argue that the wave of anti-drag legislation hitting the US right now is an attack on free expression akin to free speech. (What gives state legislature the right to ban me from putting on too much makeup and lip syncing to Madonna?)
      - mansion7 3y ago
        It's the very peculiar, very strenuous insistence that children watch, and participate, as men cavort in women's clothes in a sexually charged manner. Followed by the vilification of people with quite reasonable concerns as "transphobes" (a fireable, deplatformable, censorable offense) and "Nazis" (who have been deemed acceptable targets of unprovoked violence). But for that, most Americans would go back to not caring. Regrettably, some don't understand the concept of boundaries or restraint, or think it doesn't apply to them. Possibly because we have many in the media/entertainment industry, government, and education system telling them that they're right.
        spondylosaurus 3y ago
        What? You're implying a lot of things here, so I'm struggling to follow all of them, but I find it especially odd to suggest that being anti-Nazi is somehow unfair to them or otherwise unprovoked. I can think of at least one rather conspicuous example of a time when Nazis "started it," so to speak. Some of my relatives didn't make it out of that one.
        lostlogin 3y ago
        Your comment read better when it was just ‘What?’ I’d suggest just moving on - a look at comment history has a couple of similar comments.
  - dmbche 3y ago
    What speech is restricted? I have nothing I can't say as long as it's not hateful/diffamatory, and if I do say it I can be sued for damages. What are we referring to?
- jl6 3y ago
  Do research papers count as books? https://unherd.com/2023/04/did-city-uni-censor-my-gender-research/ https://unherd.com/2023/04/did-city-uni-censor-my-gender-res... This one’s hilarious/tragic because the censored paper was researching censorship.
- indy 3y ago
  "the left" is perhaps too broad a group, but definitely amongst the progressive liberal left there are now examples of editing particular books to remove problematic terms. I'd consider this an even more insidious attack on free speech than outright banning books.
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    > “the left" is perhaps too broad a group When a political system has two parties, this is exactly what one would expect. The book ban proponents and book editors are likely a tiny fraction of the population. However in a two party system, they are part of their party. This is what you get.
- throw0101b 3y ago
  > What books were banned by "the left"? Not banning but altering would be one form of censorship, e.g., "Roald Dahl books rewritten to remove language deemed offensive": * https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/18/roald-dahl-books-rewritten-to-remove-language-deemed-offensive https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/18/roald-dahl-boo... "Why I Decided to Update the Language in Ursula K. Le Guin’s Children’s Books": * https://lithub.com/why-i-decided-to-update-the-language-in-ursula-k-le-guins-childrens-books/ https://lithub.com/why-i-decided-to-update-the-language-in-u... "D&D: WotC’s New Batch Of Errata Removes Racial Alignments, Retcons Drow": * https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/12/dd-wotc-removes-racial-alignments-retcons-drow-in-new-batch-of-errata.html https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/12/dd-wotc-removes-raci... To quote George Orwell's 1984: "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." The past is being rewritten (as opposed to leaving the original language and simply putting a forward in explaining things).
  - tshaddox 3y ago
    Weren’t all of those changes done willingly by the publishers/copyright holders of those works?
    - throw0101b 3y ago
      Maybe, maybe not; it's hard to tell: how many folks are willing to stake their livelihood on saying "no" to a potential mob of progressives that will 'cancel' them? Saying to them "what is written is written; make your own (new) stories with the words you want".
      - tshaddox 3y ago
        Then it sounds like you’re just describing normal persuasion, rather than using state power or violence. At that point, the heart of the disagreement isn’t over methodology (“censorship is bad”) or broad human rights (“freedom of speech is good”), but simply over whether you personally like the first version of the book or the new version.
  - djur 3y ago
- cubefox 3y ago
  Free speech is not just about not banning books. Things like cancel culture and social media censorship are mainly left-wing phenomena.
- revelio 3y ago
  [flagged]
andrewflnr 3y ago
[flagged]
archagon 3y ago
Hmm… and how do you propose to “solve” the problem of “the left”?
mcv 3y ago
> No, the overwhelming dominance in cancel culture over the last few years has been from the left. That's the popular story, but I constantly see evidence that it's overwhelmingly coming from the right.

jl6 3y ago

Different debate. Those authors were not restricted from publishing their books. The Florida issue is about what kind of material is suitable for children to access.

mindslight 3y ago
It's actually not. You can make the same distinction by saying web commenters aren't restricted from writing whatever posts they want, and the debate is about what kind of material is suitable for centralized websites to facilitate. Really, the larger ideal of free speech is about the desired orthogonality of distribution channels versus content, and general tolerance for things we dislike. We see the results of its diminishing the strongest where the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't legally apply due to these kinds of distinctions.
- jl6 3y ago
  The key element that makes it a different debate is the involvement of children. There is widespread precedent for children to have limited rights and responsibilities, and limiting what media they have access to is entirely commonplace and not done to curtail speech.
  - mindslight 3y ago
    First, Reddit is used by plenty of children (regardless of COPPA). Many have tacit approval of their parents, who don't look too hard at what Reddit contains past the front page. And Reddit most certainly wants to be a place for children (age 13-17). So what children have access to is part of both issues. Second, does this "Florida issue" include provisions for parents of children that want their children to be able to access those books, to opt out of the restrictions in question? If not, then one can't say the topic is entirely limited to the traditional role of parents deciding what is right for their children. Rather it's also about about controlling what other people's children might read. Ultimately, both topics are about filtering distribution channels, based on criteria the distribution channel managers deem appropriate - with free speech concerns hinging on how much those distribution channels end up affecting what gets perceived as the total market.