5 ms·

Meta Is Trying, and Failing, to Crush Unions in Kenya

274 points by jrepinc 3y ago

throw-4e451c8 3y ago
[flagged]
benwerd 3y ago
I'm glad this post is showing up here. We need to take care of our moderators and community managers - wherever they might be in the world. It's a hard job, both practically and emotionally, and we tend to undervalue workers in (1) non-technical positions (2) in the global south. Meta needs to concede and workers inside Meta need to push for it to do the right thing.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  >It's a hard job, both practically and emotionally I disagree that internet moderation is an hard job. It is actually quite easy which is why even children are able to do it. It is an attractive job due how you get power over the people you are moderating. This results in most moderators doing it for no compensation at all.
  - spicebox 3y ago
    The first paragraph of the article talk about “workers forced to watch videos of murder, rape, and ethnic cleansing”. Idk about you but that doesn’t sound easy to me. I think you’ve thinking of power tripping reddit mods where as this is more people being forced to watched gruesome content that is getting reported to the platform
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      >that doesn’t sound easy to me Then we disagree. I think watching videos is easy work. Gruesome content is typically obvious so that doesn't even require much mental work.
      - Eldt 3y ago
        I believe most people without a screw lose will be negatively affected by such a job, and many of them severely so
        p3rls 3y ago
        Do you feel the same way about butchers, plumbers, janitors, cops and healthcare workers etc? Because those guys see worse. Almost every day too. Not that I am against paying your jannies, but come on, it's easy stuff compared to anything in the real world. BTW "negatively affected" is such a cowardly way of putting it. What does that mean? Every job will negatively affect you, typically that's why you're getting paid to do it.
        pchangr 3y ago
        I think so, yes, they all get desensitized. Ever talked about death with a doctor?
        aiisjustanif 3y ago
        Yes. Them seeing “worse” is semantics if the outcomes are the same. > it's easy stuff compared to anything in the real world. This is the real world, with real videos of rape, torture, violence, etc. that are moderated. It’s demeaning to say it doesn’t have an implication on the health of humans that perform the job. > BTW "negatively affected" is such a cowardly way of putting it. What does that mean? This HN so let’s speak with some context. Butchers can have serious psychological distress like somatization, anxiety, depression, anger-hostility, burnout, and psychotism [1] [2]. Doctors can also experience the same issues [5]. I believe we should constructive replies that use information from the original article and current research that show content moderators face similar outcomes that do negatively affect them [3] [4] just like butchers, plumbers, janitors, cops and healthcare workers. This should be addressed for any job this happens in. [1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28506017/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28506017/ [2]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269813255_Psychological_Symptom_Profile_of_Butchers_Working_in_Slaughterhouse_and_Retail_Meat_Packing_Business_A_Comparative_Study https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269813255_Psycholog... [3]: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3411764.3445092 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3411764.3445092 [4]: https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/content-moderators-pay-a-psychological-toll-to-keep-social-media-clean-we-should-be-helping-them https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/content-moderators-pay-a-p... [5]: https://news.usc.edu/179383/stress-doctors-emergency-room-er-covid-usc-research/ https://news.usc.edu/179383/stress-doctors-emergency-room-er...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
harles 3y ago
This reads more like a highly opinionated blog post. I’m not saying its claims aren’t true, but it certainly doesn’t bother to present hard evidence. It’s also just a bizarre list of complaints, primarily that Meta should have a larger presence in Kenya and give better amenities. > Even if Meta could make the argument that it has no concrete ties to subcontracting companies in Kenya that operate on its behalf, it’s clear the social media company has no intention of bolstering its content moderation operations there. I’m not sure how work force size got conflated with union busting. > By working through contracting companies, Meta is immune from having to pay for workers’ health care or transportation — even daily meals and entertainment, which are amenities most of its full-time employees around the world not only enjoy but expect. It’s weird to aim this at Meta. It also doesn’t say that they’re not receiving these benefits - just that Meta doesn’t pay for them, which is how I’d expect a vendor to work. Edit, also: > Facebook could choose to directly employ moderators rather than outsourcing them to companies like Sama in Kenya or Accenture in the United States. They could give them the same pay, benefits, and mental health cover as Facebook’s employees at Menlo Park … Asking for Silicon Valley wages in Kenya is just bizarre.
- donohoe 3y ago
  Hard evidence? Whats your definition, and whats your expectation of it from this story? Its shining light on an issue and provides a lot of substance/evidence to its claims. I feel you're saying this doesn't really count unless there is an obvious "smoking gun".
  - harles 3y ago
    Examples or even anecdotes. There aren’t allegations in the article of any sort of union busting, other than someone is suing without details of what the person is alleging.
    - spicebox 3y ago
      The article says that they alleged they were fired after trying to organize with fellow employees
YetAnotherNick 3y ago
Countries should recognize they have intentionally allowed companies like Sama as it boosts their economy and they could easily ban them if they want to. And here the only point in suing Meta is that it is big and american and has money. They should regulate all companies like Sama to treat workers better instead of finding if there is a big entity linked to it.
warpeggio 3y ago
IT workers need to produce unionization and collective bargaining materials the way we produce open source software. For example, Atlassian has some materials regarding "Incident Management" that are easy for an organization to implement and expand upon. It's going to require effort from the employees themselves to get engaged in an environment that is extremely hostile towards labor organization. Everyone in here talking about "why would they offer US pay to Non-US workers", that is exactly the point. You should be insulted that your employer is looking to depressed markets to further depress YOUR value and YOUR wages. The solution, of course, is solidarity with these new workers: If they're doing the same work as you, they should be making the same pay. This encourages the employer to play fair.
- azinman2 3y ago
  The cost of living around the world is highly variable. Just in the U.S. you can find an order of magnitude difference, and as such the pay scales are very different per location. Why would we expect a universal wage?
  - washadjeffmad 3y ago
    > per location Should all remote employees have their compensation reduced accordingly to the pay scale of the location they submit work from, then? If a Google engineer with a $300k comp in Mountain View decides to work for a month from Nairobi, should their wage be reduced 3,200% for that duration?
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      Google already pays remote employees differently based off their location. >decides to work for a month from Nairobi You are allowed to work from a different location for 4 weeks per year, so no your wage would not be reduced in this scenario.
      - azinman2 3y ago
        Exactly. And if you were to move there full time, I’d expect your pay to change accordingly.
roflyear 3y ago
Imagine being the dude who's job it is to accomplish this.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
charcircuit 3y ago
They should bring up these problems with their contracting agency and not Meta. The contracting agency is the entity that decides the compensation, the pay and benefits.

274 points by jrepinc 3y ago

[flagged]

I'm glad this post is showing up here. We need to take care of our moderators and community managers - wherever they might be in the world. It's a hard job, both practically and emotionally, and we tend to undervalue workers in (1) non-technical positions (2) in the global south. Meta needs to concede and workers inside Meta need to push for it to do the right thing.

charcircuit 3y ago
>It's a hard job, both practically and emotionally I disagree that internet moderation is an hard job. It is actually quite easy which is why even children are able to do it. It is an attractive job due how you get power over the people you are moderating. This results in most moderators doing it for no compensation at all.
- spicebox 3y ago
  The first paragraph of the article talk about “workers forced to watch videos of murder, rape, and ethnic cleansing”. Idk about you but that doesn’t sound easy to me. I think you’ve thinking of power tripping reddit mods where as this is more people being forced to watched gruesome content that is getting reported to the platform
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    >that doesn’t sound easy to me Then we disagree. I think watching videos is easy work. Gruesome content is typically obvious so that doesn't even require much mental work.
    - Eldt 3y ago
      I believe most people without a screw lose will be negatively affected by such a job, and many of them severely so
      - p3rls 3y ago
        Do you feel the same way about butchers, plumbers, janitors, cops and healthcare workers etc? Because those guys see worse. Almost every day too. Not that I am against paying your jannies, but come on, it's easy stuff compared to anything in the real world. BTW "negatively affected" is such a cowardly way of putting it. What does that mean? Every job will negatively affect you, typically that's why you're getting paid to do it.
        pchangr 3y ago
        I think so, yes, they all get desensitized. Ever talked about death with a doctor?
        aiisjustanif 3y ago
        Yes. Them seeing “worse” is semantics if the outcomes are the same. > it's easy stuff compared to anything in the real world. This is the real world, with real videos of rape, torture, violence, etc. that are moderated. It’s demeaning to say it doesn’t have an implication on the health of humans that perform the job. > BTW "negatively affected" is such a cowardly way of putting it. What does that mean? This HN so let’s speak with some context. Butchers can have serious psychological distress like somatization, anxiety, depression, anger-hostility, burnout, and psychotism [1] [2]. Doctors can also experience the same issues [5]. I believe we should constructive replies that use information from the original article and current research that show content moderators face similar outcomes that do negatively affect them [3] [4] just like butchers, plumbers, janitors, cops and healthcare workers. This should be addressed for any job this happens in. [1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28506017/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28506017/ [2]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269813255_Psychological_Symptom_Profile_of_Butchers_Working_in_Slaughterhouse_and_Retail_Meat_Packing_Business_A_Comparative_Study https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269813255_Psycholog... [3]: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3411764.3445092 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3411764.3445092 [4]: https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/content-moderators-pay-a-psychological-toll-to-keep-social-media-clean-we-should-be-helping-them https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/content-moderators-pay-a-p... [5]: https://news.usc.edu/179383/stress-doctors-emergency-room-er-covid-usc-research/ https://news.usc.edu/179383/stress-doctors-emergency-room-er...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

harles 3y ago

This reads more like a highly opinionated blog post. I’m not saying its claims aren’t true, but it certainly doesn’t bother to present hard evidence. It’s also just a bizarre list of complaints, primarily that Meta should have a larger presence in Kenya and give better amenities. > Even if Meta could make the argument that it has no concrete ties to subcontracting companies in Kenya that operate on its behalf, it’s clear the social media company has no intention of bolstering its content moderation operations there. I’m not sure how work force size got conflated with union busting. > By working through contracting companies, Meta is immune from having to pay for workers’ health care or transportation — even daily meals and entertainment, which are amenities most of its full-time employees around the world not only enjoy but expect. It’s weird to aim this at Meta. It also doesn’t say that they’re not receiving these benefits - just that Meta doesn’t pay for them, which is how I’d expect a vendor to work. Edit, also: > Facebook could choose to directly employ moderators rather than outsourcing them to companies like Sama in Kenya or Accenture in the United States. They could give them the same pay, benefits, and mental health cover as Facebook’s employees at Menlo Park … Asking for Silicon Valley wages in Kenya is just bizarre.

donohoe 3y ago
Hard evidence? Whats your definition, and whats your expectation of it from this story? Its shining light on an issue and provides a lot of substance/evidence to its claims. I feel you're saying this doesn't really count unless there is an obvious "smoking gun".
- harles 3y ago
  Examples or even anecdotes. There aren’t allegations in the article of any sort of union busting, other than someone is suing without details of what the person is alleging.
  - spicebox 3y ago
    The article says that they alleged they were fired after trying to organize with fellow employees

YetAnotherNick 3y ago

Countries should recognize they have intentionally allowed companies like Sama as it boosts their economy and they could easily ban them if they want to. And here the only point in suing Meta is that it is big and american and has money. They should regulate all companies like Sama to treat workers better instead of finding if there is a big entity linked to it.

warpeggio 3y ago

IT workers need to produce unionization and collective bargaining materials the way we produce open source software. For example, Atlassian has some materials regarding "Incident Management" that are easy for an organization to implement and expand upon. It's going to require effort from the employees themselves to get engaged in an environment that is extremely hostile towards labor organization. Everyone in here talking about "why would they offer US pay to Non-US workers", that is exactly the point. You should be insulted that your employer is looking to depressed markets to further depress YOUR value and YOUR wages. The solution, of course, is solidarity with these new workers: If they're doing the same work as you, they should be making the same pay. This encourages the employer to play fair.

azinman2 3y ago
The cost of living around the world is highly variable. Just in the U.S. you can find an order of magnitude difference, and as such the pay scales are very different per location. Why would we expect a universal wage?
- washadjeffmad 3y ago
  > per location Should all remote employees have their compensation reduced accordingly to the pay scale of the location they submit work from, then? If a Google engineer with a $300k comp in Mountain View decides to work for a month from Nairobi, should their wage be reduced 3,200% for that duration?
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    Google already pays remote employees differently based off their location. >decides to work for a month from Nairobi You are allowed to work from a different location for 4 weeks per year, so no your wage would not be reduced in this scenario.
    - azinman2 3y ago
      Exactly. And if you were to move there full time, I’d expect your pay to change accordingly.

roflyear 3y ago

Imagine being the dude who's job it is to accomplish this.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

charcircuit 3y ago

They should bring up these problems with their contracting agency and not Meta. The contracting agency is the entity that decides the compensation, the pay and benefits.