4 ms·

How many times does this have to happen before people learn that cryptocurrency is not a good place to park money?

by fron 3y ago

paulpauper 3y ago
the level of technical savvy to store crypto safely makes it impractical for the general population
- HlessClaudesman 3y ago
  AKA:too many crocodiles at the watering hole.
- spaceman_2020 3y ago
  And god forbid if you accidentally transfer your crypto from one incomprehensible address to another.
lfkdev 3y ago
? It is literally uncountable how many times the big banks stole money from regular people. Crypto indeed is a good place to store money.
- j16sdiz 3y ago
  When this happens with big bank, you could try going to the court. When this happens to crypto, you got nobody to blame but yourself.
  - scotty79 3y ago
    > When this happens with big bank, you could try going to the court. Great. So not only I lost my money but now I'm getting an assignment as well. Which will last many years and at best will result in recovering a fraction of what I lost and the most likely outcome us not getting anything back and possibly paying more.
- Zemtomo 3y ago
  Huh? You literally mean a bank took your money from your account? Which ones?
  - bavell 3y ago
    Fwiw I've heard many horror stories about Paypal
    - MrGilbert 3y ago
      Paypal is not considered a bank, which is the root of many problems we are facing with paypal.
  - latchkey 3y ago
    I had the California State Board of Equalization empty one of my bank accounts without warning because they thought I owned them back taxes. I had moved out of the country and wasn't filing California taxes, which was a mistake. You still have to file a 0 tax. I still haven't gotten my money back.
  - lfkdev 3y ago
    Dude, there are whole countries where the Goverment just stopped everyone from getting their money out of the Bank. Greek for example, just a few years ago. It's not something very rare nor do you have to be in a third world country.
- yashg 3y ago
  Ah yes, big bank, bad. Government, very bad. Crypto good. Sure.
scotty79 3y ago
It's a great place but when you need to cash out you need fresh linux system with fresh wallet software connected to the internet only when you make the transaction. Not an app for your phone. Everybody will have malicious keylogger on their phone eventually if they install apps and sometimes even if they don't.
- contravariant 3y ago
  Of course you also need a clean version of linux and all software compiled with a clean compiler. Thankfully we can be reasonably sure that some compilers at least predate cryptocurrency.
- lxgr 3y ago
  > Everybody will have malicious keylogger on their phone eventually Are there actually any keyloggers for iOS and Android? Unlike on desktop OSes, there isn’t even an API for that, so you’d need an actual OS exploit. > fresh linux system with fresh wallet software And how do you make sure that that doesn’t come with a keylogger (in a world where a significant number of people were to actually do that)?
  - tourmalinetaco 3y ago
    > you’d need an actual OS exploit Not necessarily, for instance 3rd party keyboards like Grammarly are keyloggers by their very nature. They grab your input, process it, and give output in terms of grammar corrections. And a rogue app update can absolutely do the same. > And how do you make sure that that doesn’t come with a keylogger The same way you verify anything is what you want and stays that way, MD5/SHA256 hashes and airgaps.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      It's possible to disable third party keyboards for sensitive data entry at least on iOS. Not sure if the same is possible on Android – worst case, a wallet could just provide their own keyboard/passphrase entry method. > The same way you verify anything is what you want and stays that way, MD5/SHA256 hashes and airgaps. How do you determine a given hash to be trustworthy? And how do you know you can trust your `sha256sum` implementation? You're always trusting someone. Any security analysis pretending otherwise is worthless.
joemazerino 3y ago
There are ways to park it safely and ways not to park it safely.
- lxgr 3y ago
  How are laypeople supposed to know which is which?
  - tourmalinetaco 3y ago
    From my understanding, as what’s essentially a layperson in crypto, is hardware over any form of software. Same as with fiat in say PayPal, you don’t own it unless you can physically hold it. And physically holding it in this case is via FOSS hardware wallets such as Trezor.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      That hardware will ultimately also be running software, and you need to be trusting the vendor/supply chain of both. This is not at all to say that there is no point in hardened/secure execution environments like smartcards, Yubikeys, hardware wallets etc., but the important point is that the statement "hardware is more secure than software" by itself is dangerously misleading. And there is no such thing as (fully) "FOSS hardware". Somebody needs to build a physical thing in the end, and you can't verify every single step of that process. Openness/transparency has its advantages and reduces the chance of nefarious things happening in your supply chain, but this is lightyears away from "trustlessness".
latchkey 3y ago
Neither is Paypal or Venmo. https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/02/investing/payment-apps-safety/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/02/investing/payment-apps-safety...
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  Who would park it there though? You receive money there and send it to your bank, or you send a little money to pay something. Who stores money there?
  - latchkey 3y ago
    Why should anyone feel that they are unsafe with a heavily regulated payment industry?
    - anonzzzies 3y ago
      If it's not a bank and not state backed/insured, it might as well be crypto. With crypto, at least in cold storage, there is a lot less chance of losing your money and no chance of getting a dreaded 'your account was indefinitely suspended' from the 'AI' at Paypal. And having no recourse whatsoever. Still, personally, I distribute over all kinds of banks (where I get E100k per bank when they fall, so I make sure I'm under that amount per bank) and assets so the fallout is minimal if something falls. Well, unless it's a 1929 event of course; then it remains to be seen what is left after. But then crypto is wiped out too; people gotta live, so they will mass sell off.
      - latchkey 3y ago
        > If it's not a bank and not state backed/insured, it might as well be crypto. All I ever hear is how we need more regulation with crypto. Why aren't we demanding that with something as pervasive as Paypal/Venmo?

How many times does this have to happen before people learn that cryptocurrency is not a good place to park money?

by fron 3y ago

How many times does this have to happen before people learn that cryptocurrency is not a good place to park money?

paulpauper 3y ago

the level of technical savvy to store crypto safely makes it impractical for the general population

HlessClaudesman 3y ago
AKA:too many crocodiles at the watering hole.
spaceman_2020 3y ago
And god forbid if you accidentally transfer your crypto from one incomprehensible address to another.

lfkdev 3y ago

? It is literally uncountable how many times the big banks stole money from regular people. Crypto indeed is a good place to store money.

j16sdiz 3y ago
When this happens with big bank, you could try going to the court. When this happens to crypto, you got nobody to blame but yourself.
- scotty79 3y ago
  > When this happens with big bank, you could try going to the court. Great. So not only I lost my money but now I'm getting an assignment as well. Which will last many years and at best will result in recovering a fraction of what I lost and the most likely outcome us not getting anything back and possibly paying more.
Zemtomo 3y ago
Huh? You literally mean a bank took your money from your account? Which ones?
- bavell 3y ago
  Fwiw I've heard many horror stories about Paypal
  - MrGilbert 3y ago
    Paypal is not considered a bank, which is the root of many problems we are facing with paypal.
- latchkey 3y ago
  I had the California State Board of Equalization empty one of my bank accounts without warning because they thought I owned them back taxes. I had moved out of the country and wasn't filing California taxes, which was a mistake. You still have to file a 0 tax. I still haven't gotten my money back.
- lfkdev 3y ago
  Dude, there are whole countries where the Goverment just stopped everyone from getting their money out of the Bank. Greek for example, just a few years ago. It's not something very rare nor do you have to be in a third world country.
yashg 3y ago
Ah yes, big bank, bad. Government, very bad. Crypto good. Sure.

scotty79 3y ago

It's a great place but when you need to cash out you need fresh linux system with fresh wallet software connected to the internet only when you make the transaction. Not an app for your phone. Everybody will have malicious keylogger on their phone eventually if they install apps and sometimes even if they don't.

contravariant 3y ago
Of course you also need a clean version of linux and all software compiled with a clean compiler. Thankfully we can be reasonably sure that some compilers at least predate cryptocurrency.
lxgr 3y ago
> Everybody will have malicious keylogger on their phone eventually Are there actually any keyloggers for iOS and Android? Unlike on desktop OSes, there isn’t even an API for that, so you’d need an actual OS exploit. > fresh linux system with fresh wallet software And how do you make sure that that doesn’t come with a keylogger (in a world where a significant number of people were to actually do that)?
- tourmalinetaco 3y ago
  > you’d need an actual OS exploit Not necessarily, for instance 3rd party keyboards like Grammarly are keyloggers by their very nature. They grab your input, process it, and give output in terms of grammar corrections. And a rogue app update can absolutely do the same. > And how do you make sure that that doesn’t come with a keylogger The same way you verify anything is what you want and stays that way, MD5/SHA256 hashes and airgaps.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    It's possible to disable third party keyboards for sensitive data entry at least on iOS. Not sure if the same is possible on Android – worst case, a wallet could just provide their own keyboard/passphrase entry method. > The same way you verify anything is what you want and stays that way, MD5/SHA256 hashes and airgaps. How do you determine a given hash to be trustworthy? And how do you know you can trust your `sha256sum` implementation? You're always trusting someone. Any security analysis pretending otherwise is worthless.

joemazerino 3y ago

There are ways to park it safely and ways not to park it safely.

lxgr 3y ago
How are laypeople supposed to know which is which?
- tourmalinetaco 3y ago
  From my understanding, as what’s essentially a layperson in crypto, is hardware over any form of software. Same as with fiat in say PayPal, you don’t own it unless you can physically hold it. And physically holding it in this case is via FOSS hardware wallets such as Trezor.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    That hardware will ultimately also be running software, and you need to be trusting the vendor/supply chain of both. This is not at all to say that there is no point in hardened/secure execution environments like smartcards, Yubikeys, hardware wallets etc., but the important point is that the statement "hardware is more secure than software" by itself is dangerously misleading. And there is no such thing as (fully) "FOSS hardware". Somebody needs to build a physical thing in the end, and you can't verify every single step of that process. Openness/transparency has its advantages and reduces the chance of nefarious things happening in your supply chain, but this is lightyears away from "trustlessness".

latchkey 3y ago

Neither is Paypal or Venmo. https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/02/investing/payment-apps-safety/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/02/investing/payment-apps-safety...

anonzzzies 3y ago
Who would park it there though? You receive money there and send it to your bank, or you send a little money to pay something. Who stores money there?
- latchkey 3y ago
  Why should anyone feel that they are unsafe with a heavily regulated payment industry?
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    If it's not a bank and not state backed/insured, it might as well be crypto. With crypto, at least in cold storage, there is a lot less chance of losing your money and no chance of getting a dreaded 'your account was indefinitely suspended' from the 'AI' at Paypal. And having no recourse whatsoever. Still, personally, I distribute over all kinds of banks (where I get E100k per bank when they fall, so I make sure I'm under that amount per bank) and assets so the fallout is minimal if something falls. Well, unless it's a 1929 event of course; then it remains to be seen what is left after. But then crypto is wiped out too; people gotta live, so they will mass sell off.
    - latchkey 3y ago
      > If it's not a bank and not state backed/insured, it might as well be crypto. All I ever hear is how we need more regulation with crypto. Why aren't we demanding that with something as pervasive as Paypal/Venmo?