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The "Has my ballot been counted?", which you are solving here, is not really a problem or not the entire problem of verifiability. The problem is "Has every cou

The "Has my ballot been counted?", which you are solving here, is not really a problem or not the entire problem of verifiability. The problem is "Has every counted ballot been cast by a person who: has the right to vote, and has not voted elsewhere?", I don't see how this can be easily solved in a secret ballot.

somenameforme 3y ago
This has been solved pretty easily in literally every other developed country in the world. You show up to the ballot office, present some form of recognized identification, and your name is scratched off a list. If you want to be fancy, you can centralize the list. Having some basic form of identification is a prerequisite to being an at all involved member of society.
- pandaman 3y ago
  I doubt this. Don't some developed countries have mail voting? I am pretty sure Australia does, for one.
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    Australia's relatively unique in that they have compulsory voting. This helps remove some of the threat vectors, like voter impersonation. You can't just find an inactive voter and turn in papers on his behalf. But in spite of this built in protection they also have numerous other safeguards. You read about them here [1]. They include, but are not limited to: - Needing to request a ballot, and including a security question/answer. The security answer will be cross referenced when returned to avoid somebody filling out a mail-in ballot that was not their own. - One must already be enrolled to vote (which implies ID verification) when requesting a ballot, and the ballot request also requires knowledge of the address used to register to vote, though the ballot itself can be sent to another address for e.g. expats or whatever. - When filling out the ballot, you are also required to have a witness sign it, affirming that it was you who filled it out. And that witness must be on the electoral roll. It's definitely not perfect, but it's vastly better than what we have. And targeting some reasonable fears like impersonation, harvesting, and so on. And I think that effort to target these fears is, in reality, just as important as whether or not it even does, or if those fears are even justified. Because, again it's all about perception. Anything they can be done to help increase the perception of transparency and security in elections, without meaningfully encumbering the process, should be done. [1] - https://www.aec.gov.au/about_aec/Publications/easy-read/files/vote-mail-easy-eng.pdf https://www.aec.gov.au/about_aec/Publications/easy-read/file...
    - pandaman 3y ago
      Indeed, the Australian system is pretty good, and would be nice to have even without compulsory voting. But I am extremely skeptical we will ever get voter IDs in the US, least verifying voter registrations. One party is extremely opposed to any ballot security measures. Makes one wonder why is it so...
  - thephyber 3y ago
    Yes. 14 countries in Europe allow mail-in voting for domestic residents[1] and almost all G7 countries support mail-in voting for citizens abroad. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/12/04/trumps-assertion-that-only-two-european-nations-allow-mail-in-voting/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/12/04/trumps-as...
- thephyber 3y ago
  The US, for the most part, does it the same way. Except to compare other developed countries to the USA, you have to remember that most other sane countries run elections from the nation level, whereas the US runs them primarily at the county level. We have 3300+ different jurisdictions all testing slightly different methods and policies with mostly the same aim. And states get to pass statutes to decide things like mail-in, dropboxes, identity requirements, etc. so counties can't homogenize their policies unless states do. Lots of small counties run their elections exactly as you described. But we also have more requirements than other countries.[1] We support voting for out-of-country citizens and active-duty military. These are treated like mail-ins and have been for decades. Some states support same day registration (including for people who move counties/states in the weeks before election day). We support provisional ballots (there are lots of edge cases including recent name changes, citizens being removed from registry without the approval of the voter, ballot misprints, the paper was destroyed, the ballot print does not conform to the scanner, mail-in ballot was never delivered, etc). All of these types are reviewed by the county election officials with signature verification before they are counted as valid ballots. "Having some basic form of identification is a prerequisite to being an at all involved member of society." So complain to legislators. In California, the right to vote supersedes the ability to get a valid government-issued ID or "being an at all member of society".[1] It's also worth pointing out that the right to vote is a constitutional right, whereas the ability to obtain a government-issued ID is both cumbersome and very expensive for some people. Think along the lines of people whose documents were all destroyed in a fire, people who are homeless, and people who are released from prison but whom have not paid the massive fines associated with prison in many states. It's not my fault that you value the right to vote differently than legislators. [1] https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voter-bill-rights/ https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voter-bill-rights/
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    Can you list a single country we have more requirements than? You'll find voter ID is ubiquitous in the rest of the world. Incidentally it's also overwhelmingly supported in the US (by 80% [1]) which obviously goes well beyond any partisan divide. Also, voting is not a constitutional right. There were some constitutional amendments added later (in other words, not in the Bill of Rights) that prevented states from restricting voters based on things like race or sex, but states have relatively few limitations on who they allow or prevent from voting. This is why states can do things like prevent convicted felons from voting. [1] - https://news.gallup.com/poll/194741/four-five-americans-support-voter-laws-early-voting.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/194741/four-five-americans-supp...

somenameforme 3y ago

This has been solved pretty easily in literally every other developed country in the world. You show up to the ballot office, present some form of recognized identification, and your name is scratched off a list. If you want to be fancy, you can centralize the list. Having some basic form of identification is a prerequisite to being an at all involved member of society.

pandaman 3y ago
I doubt this. Don't some developed countries have mail voting? I am pretty sure Australia does, for one.
- somenameforme 3y ago
  Australia's relatively unique in that they have compulsory voting. This helps remove some of the threat vectors, like voter impersonation. You can't just find an inactive voter and turn in papers on his behalf. But in spite of this built in protection they also have numerous other safeguards. You read about them here [1]. They include, but are not limited to: - Needing to request a ballot, and including a security question/answer. The security answer will be cross referenced when returned to avoid somebody filling out a mail-in ballot that was not their own. - One must already be enrolled to vote (which implies ID verification) when requesting a ballot, and the ballot request also requires knowledge of the address used to register to vote, though the ballot itself can be sent to another address for e.g. expats or whatever. - When filling out the ballot, you are also required to have a witness sign it, affirming that it was you who filled it out. And that witness must be on the electoral roll. It's definitely not perfect, but it's vastly better than what we have. And targeting some reasonable fears like impersonation, harvesting, and so on. And I think that effort to target these fears is, in reality, just as important as whether or not it even does, or if those fears are even justified. Because, again it's all about perception. Anything they can be done to help increase the perception of transparency and security in elections, without meaningfully encumbering the process, should be done. [1] - https://www.aec.gov.au/about_aec/Publications/easy-read/files/vote-mail-easy-eng.pdf https://www.aec.gov.au/about_aec/Publications/easy-read/file...
  - pandaman 3y ago
    Indeed, the Australian system is pretty good, and would be nice to have even without compulsory voting. But I am extremely skeptical we will ever get voter IDs in the US, least verifying voter registrations. One party is extremely opposed to any ballot security measures. Makes one wonder why is it so...
- thephyber 3y ago
  Yes. 14 countries in Europe allow mail-in voting for domestic residents[1] and almost all G7 countries support mail-in voting for citizens abroad. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/12/04/trumps-assertion-that-only-two-european-nations-allow-mail-in-voting/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/12/04/trumps-as...
thephyber 3y ago
The US, for the most part, does it the same way. Except to compare other developed countries to the USA, you have to remember that most other sane countries run elections from the nation level, whereas the US runs them primarily at the county level. We have 3300+ different jurisdictions all testing slightly different methods and policies with mostly the same aim. And states get to pass statutes to decide things like mail-in, dropboxes, identity requirements, etc. so counties can't homogenize their policies unless states do. Lots of small counties run their elections exactly as you described. But we also have more requirements than other countries.[1] We support voting for out-of-country citizens and active-duty military. These are treated like mail-ins and have been for decades. Some states support same day registration (including for people who move counties/states in the weeks before election day). We support provisional ballots (there are lots of edge cases including recent name changes, citizens being removed from registry without the approval of the voter, ballot misprints, the paper was destroyed, the ballot print does not conform to the scanner, mail-in ballot was never delivered, etc). All of these types are reviewed by the county election officials with signature verification before they are counted as valid ballots. "Having some basic form of identification is a prerequisite to being an at all involved member of society." So complain to legislators. In California, the right to vote supersedes the ability to get a valid government-issued ID or "being an at all member of society".[1] It's also worth pointing out that the right to vote is a constitutional right, whereas the ability to obtain a government-issued ID is both cumbersome and very expensive for some people. Think along the lines of people whose documents were all destroyed in a fire, people who are homeless, and people who are released from prison but whom have not paid the massive fines associated with prison in many states. It's not my fault that you value the right to vote differently than legislators. [1] https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voter-bill-rights/ https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voter-bill-rights/
- somenameforme 3y ago
  Can you list a single country we have more requirements than? You'll find voter ID is ubiquitous in the rest of the world. Incidentally it's also overwhelmingly supported in the US (by 80% [1]) which obviously goes well beyond any partisan divide. Also, voting is not a constitutional right. There were some constitutional amendments added later (in other words, not in the Bill of Rights) that prevented states from restricting voters based on things like race or sex, but states have relatively few limitations on who they allow or prevent from voting. This is why states can do things like prevent convicted felons from voting. [1] - https://news.gallup.com/poll/194741/four-five-americans-support-voter-laws-early-voting.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/194741/four-five-americans-supp...