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It kind of works, that’s the point. I pay for an FSD subscription because I get enjoyment from my car driving me around. Am I being scammed?

by valine 3y ago

agentgumshoe 3y ago
When people have already been scammed, they will argue till blue in the face that it's not a scam, even if it's clear it is to everyone else... So if I said yes, what's your response? No, of course. Not saying everyone thinks it's a scam here, just that your argument it's not doesn't do much with the bias of already paying...
- valine 3y ago
  I pay some money once a month for my car to drive me around. My car then drives me around. My argument is that since I’m paying month by month I clearly know what I’m buying and have properly evaluated the value proposition. The classic argument that FSD is a scam because consumers don’t understand what they’re buying falls apart when FSD is a no contract subscription service.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    Does the car fully self drive, or does it require human supervision by a licensed driver in a particular seat? Sounds like FSD doesn’t actually FSD. In other words, you know what you’re buying is not what’s advertised so it isn’t a scam?
    - judge2020 3y ago
      The argument is that you know what you're buying, full stop. It doesn't matter what's being advertised, unless you intend to sue for false advertising, in which your best bet is to lie the whole time and say that you based your purchase entirely off of the advertising.
    - valine 3y ago
      You can imagine my shock every time the steering wheel nag goes off. You’d think I’d learn by now.
- o1y32 3y ago
  Exactly. I have learned that there is no point trying to tell a Tesla fanboy what the problem is. They will not listen. In the nytimes article, a guy bought another Tesla right after the previous one was totalled because of an FSD error. The thing I have been telling myself is that fortunately I am not risking my own life for that.
  - valine 3y ago
    Is this the article you’re talking about? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/17/magazine/tesla-autopilot-self-driving-elon-musk.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/17/magazine/tesla-autopilot-... The “totaled car” was a 2015 Model S which would have been running MobilEye software, not FSD. Stirring up hysteria is a classic tactic that news sites use to generate revenue. Always look at the title of the page. When you see something like “New York Time Magazine” there’s a good chance what you’re reading is not actually a reputable NYT article.
    - throwaway2037 3y ago
      When you see something like “New York Time Magazine” there’s a good chance what you’re reading is not actually a reputable NYT article. This is the first time I have seen such an accusation on HN about the quality of NYTM vs NYT. To me, NYTM is just longer form -- a bit more story telling.
  - sidibe 3y ago
    The Tesla Stanley video perfectly sums up my experience discussing FSD with big fans. https://youtu.be/4r-kUtLShJo https://youtu.be/4r-kUtLShJo
Veserv 3y ago
Probably, since you do not know the operational characteristics of the safety-critical device you are operating. It is a safety-critical device with known safety defects that is incomplete and that rejects defining any operational domain where it can operate safely. It literally does not define any way it can be used safely by a general consumer or the limits of its safe operation unlike say a chainsaw or a gun where there is a safety manual which defines the ways it can be operated safely by a user. This is acceptable when tested by a trained operator who is in direct contact with the designers and is made aware of the specific operational characteristics of the device, but not when operated by a untrained consumer. The product is literally, explicitly unfit for any use as it is a safety-critical product. I guess you might not be getting scammed if you know it is unfit for any purpose, but at the very least you are being a danger to society for using a explicitly unsafe product that can not be operated safely.
- infoseek12 3y ago
  It isn’t as though there isn’t an internal and governmental testing process in place to ensure a reasonable level of safety. I suppose what you’re saying is true, in the same sense that using any modern computer technology which has software in it’s stack, which hasn’t been formally verified, is fundamentally unsafe.
  - jorvi 3y ago
    > in the same sense that using any modern computer technology which has software in it’s stack, which hasn’t been formally verified, is fundamentally unsafe. If an IDE on your laptop malfunctions, you end up with a crash or some malformed data. If self-driving fails, you end up barreling down the road in a 2 tonne deathbox, likely killing you or someone else. Not equivalent in the slightest.
    - belltaco 3y ago
      Yet that is what humans are allowed to do every day and kill people.
    - 3y ago
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> I get enjoyment from my car driving me around. Am I being scammed? I get enjoyment from my heroin too, so scam is the wrong word. But a crime is commited in both cases
smt88 3y ago
I don't think you're being scammed, but it's not fair that you're beta testing software that could kill me and I have no say in it and don't get paid anything. I shouldn't have to die because idiots trust Tesla marketing lies about safety.

It kind of works, that’s the point. I pay for an FSD subscription because I get enjoyment from my car driving me around. Am I being scammed?

by valine 3y ago

It kind of works, that’s the point. I pay for an FSD subscription because I get enjoyment from my car driving me around. Am I being scammed?

agentgumshoe 3y ago

When people have already been scammed, they will argue till blue in the face that it's not a scam, even if it's clear it is to everyone else... So if I said yes, what's your response? No, of course. Not saying everyone thinks it's a scam here, just that your argument it's not doesn't do much with the bias of already paying...

valine 3y ago
I pay some money once a month for my car to drive me around. My car then drives me around. My argument is that since I’m paying month by month I clearly know what I’m buying and have properly evaluated the value proposition. The classic argument that FSD is a scam because consumers don’t understand what they’re buying falls apart when FSD is a no contract subscription service.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  Does the car fully self drive, or does it require human supervision by a licensed driver in a particular seat? Sounds like FSD doesn’t actually FSD. In other words, you know what you’re buying is not what’s advertised so it isn’t a scam?
  - judge2020 3y ago
    The argument is that you know what you're buying, full stop. It doesn't matter what's being advertised, unless you intend to sue for false advertising, in which your best bet is to lie the whole time and say that you based your purchase entirely off of the advertising.
  - valine 3y ago
    You can imagine my shock every time the steering wheel nag goes off. You’d think I’d learn by now.
o1y32 3y ago
Exactly. I have learned that there is no point trying to tell a Tesla fanboy what the problem is. They will not listen. In the nytimes article, a guy bought another Tesla right after the previous one was totalled because of an FSD error. The thing I have been telling myself is that fortunately I am not risking my own life for that.
- valine 3y ago
  Is this the article you’re talking about? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/17/magazine/tesla-autopilot-self-driving-elon-musk.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/17/magazine/tesla-autopilot-... The “totaled car” was a 2015 Model S which would have been running MobilEye software, not FSD. Stirring up hysteria is a classic tactic that news sites use to generate revenue. Always look at the title of the page. When you see something like “New York Time Magazine” there’s a good chance what you’re reading is not actually a reputable NYT article.
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    When you see something like “New York Time Magazine” there’s a good chance what you’re reading is not actually a reputable NYT article. This is the first time I have seen such an accusation on HN about the quality of NYTM vs NYT. To me, NYTM is just longer form -- a bit more story telling.
- sidibe 3y ago
  The Tesla Stanley video perfectly sums up my experience discussing FSD with big fans. https://youtu.be/4r-kUtLShJo https://youtu.be/4r-kUtLShJo

Veserv 3y ago

Probably, since you do not know the operational characteristics of the safety-critical device you are operating. It is a safety-critical device with known safety defects that is incomplete and that rejects defining any operational domain where it can operate safely. It literally does not define any way it can be used safely by a general consumer or the limits of its safe operation unlike say a chainsaw or a gun where there is a safety manual which defines the ways it can be operated safely by a user. This is acceptable when tested by a trained operator who is in direct contact with the designers and is made aware of the specific operational characteristics of the device, but not when operated by a untrained consumer. The product is literally, explicitly unfit for any use as it is a safety-critical product. I guess you might not be getting scammed if you know it is unfit for any purpose, but at the very least you are being a danger to society for using a explicitly unsafe product that can not be operated safely.

infoseek12 3y ago
It isn’t as though there isn’t an internal and governmental testing process in place to ensure a reasonable level of safety. I suppose what you’re saying is true, in the same sense that using any modern computer technology which has software in it’s stack, which hasn’t been formally verified, is fundamentally unsafe.
- jorvi 3y ago
  > in the same sense that using any modern computer technology which has software in it’s stack, which hasn’t been formally verified, is fundamentally unsafe. If an IDE on your laptop malfunctions, you end up with a crash or some malformed data. If self-driving fails, you end up barreling down the road in a 2 tonne deathbox, likely killing you or someone else. Not equivalent in the slightest.
  - belltaco 3y ago
    Yet that is what humans are allowed to do every day and kill people.
  - 3y ago

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> I get enjoyment from my car driving me around. Am I being scammed? I get enjoyment from my heroin too, so scam is the wrong word. But a crime is commited in both cases

smt88 3y ago

I don't think you're being scammed, but it's not fair that you're beta testing software that could kill me and I have no say in it and don't get paid anything. I shouldn't have to die because idiots trust Tesla marketing lies about safety.