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The first two items there contradict each other. What’s an employer to do? This list of problems only reflects the point of view of a relatively inexperienced c

by dahart 3y ago

The first two items there contradict each other. What’s an employer to do? This list of problems only reflects the point of view of a relatively inexperienced candidate who doesn’t like interviews, it’s not a list of problems that companies have, or that people with strong skills and experience have. It’s an assumption to expect interviews need to reflect the work on the job or match daily tasks. Interviews are the employer trying to select the best candidate for an uncertain future, not mimic the drudgery of a day in the life at work. If I’m interviewing, I don’t want to know if you can code a specific task today, I want to know how well you can adapt to changing roles, whether you’re more extroverted lead material, or introverted and wicked smart or prolific, whether you’re ambitious or happy laying low. I’m much more interested in broad potential more than ability to perform technical tasks. Isn’t the last item on your list a good reason to do some due diligence by checking whether people can code in practice before going through the expensive process of hiring them and having them fail and then having to try again with someone else? I haven’t seen a lot of outright lying on resumes, but I’ve seen a ton of overconfidence in one’s relative skill, I’ve seen people who are great on paper but duds in practice, but more than those I’ve see a lot of people who don’t communicate well, don’t get along well on a team, have bad attitudes, cover up mistakes instead of learning or admitting skill gaps, etc. I don’t know what it means to claim most jobs don’t require proving skills. Most jobs are entry-level minimum-wage jobs. Anyone in the arts is used to constantly proving their skills via auditions, critiques, performances, etc. Doctors have it way worse with low paid grueling residency. We’re talking about high paid programmers where hiring the wrong person is an expensive mistake and can damage team productivity.

danaris 3y ago
You seem to be leaving out an awful lot of types of jobs there. Do accountants have to provide a portfolio? Do museum curators have to spend several hours curating a collection for their prospective employers, for free? Do any of the 31 flavors of middle management have to sit through a "leet-manage" test? Professions that require on-the-spot demonstration of your skills in order to be hired are very much the outlier, not the norm.
- dahart 3y ago
  Yes, correct. You and I both left out nearly all job types. You’re making sweeping generic claims about all jobs without any specific evidence. And I still don’t really see a clear problem or any suggestion for an alternative. The point you didn’t address here is that programmers are paid more than accountants, museum curators, and much more than burger-flippers. If you want a high paying job coding, and it typically requires doing just a tiny bit of live coding, why not spend time practicing instead of complaining? Another thing you haven’t addressed is that there are a lot of stories of programmers faking their way through job interviews. I don’t know how often it actually happens, but kids trying to game the system to get high paying jobs seems to be an actual problem, whereas statistically nobody is trying to fake their way into a museum curating job. Do you consider certifications and qualifications to be a pre-hiring demonstration of skills? Many many jobs require these. Programming jobs sometimes require them, and those jobs are less likely to ask for on-the-spot programming during interviews. Not all programming jobs ask for live-coding, you shouldn’t assume they all do. Do you consider an interview to be a demonstration of skill? All the jobs you listed require interviews where you have to talk in technical detail about what you’ve done. Speaking of outliers, there are almost no museum curating jobs, and they have to typically do a master’s degree and then spend years doing intern style work, perhaps similar to a doctor’s residency. Then after all that, the median salary is less than half of the median programmer’s salary. Accountants and Baskin Robbins managers also make less than programmers on average, and the sum total of jobs available in all three jobs you just listed is relatively small compared to doctors and artists - in the US (for example) there are ~1.5M accountants, less than 10k curators, and just over 2k Baskin Robbins, while artist jobs alone are double that of accountants and including doctors is around ~4M jobs. The number of programming jobs in the US is around 4.5M. Between artists and programmers, the number of jobs that requires on-the-spot skills demonstrations is definitely much larger than all jobs you just listed so far, even when I give you the benefit of the doubt and include all fast food managers in the US and not just Baskin Robbins. Above you illustrated some reasons why asking for a skill demonstration is a good idea, so I’m not sure why it matters whether or not it’s common for other job types. Maybe programming interviews have better outcomes than accounting interviews (fewer firings or bad employees per capita), in addition to higher average pay?

by dahart 3y ago

danaris 3y ago

You seem to be leaving out an awful lot of types of jobs there. Do accountants have to provide a portfolio? Do museum curators have to spend several hours curating a collection for their prospective employers, for free? Do any of the 31 flavors of middle management have to sit through a "leet-manage" test? Professions that require on-the-spot demonstration of your skills in order to be hired are very much the outlier, not the norm.

dahart 3y ago
Yes, correct. You and I both left out nearly all job types. You’re making sweeping generic claims about all jobs without any specific evidence. And I still don’t really see a clear problem or any suggestion for an alternative. The point you didn’t address here is that programmers are paid more than accountants, museum curators, and much more than burger-flippers. If you want a high paying job coding, and it typically requires doing just a tiny bit of live coding, why not spend time practicing instead of complaining? Another thing you haven’t addressed is that there are a lot of stories of programmers faking their way through job interviews. I don’t know how often it actually happens, but kids trying to game the system to get high paying jobs seems to be an actual problem, whereas statistically nobody is trying to fake their way into a museum curating job. Do you consider certifications and qualifications to be a pre-hiring demonstration of skills? Many many jobs require these. Programming jobs sometimes require them, and those jobs are less likely to ask for on-the-spot programming during interviews. Not all programming jobs ask for live-coding, you shouldn’t assume they all do. Do you consider an interview to be a demonstration of skill? All the jobs you listed require interviews where you have to talk in technical detail about what you’ve done. Speaking of outliers, there are almost no museum curating jobs, and they have to typically do a master’s degree and then spend years doing intern style work, perhaps similar to a doctor’s residency. Then after all that, the median salary is less than half of the median programmer’s salary. Accountants and Baskin Robbins managers also make less than programmers on average, and the sum total of jobs available in all three jobs you just listed is relatively small compared to doctors and artists - in the US (for example) there are ~1.5M accountants, less than 10k curators, and just over 2k Baskin Robbins, while artist jobs alone are double that of accountants and including doctors is around ~4M jobs. The number of programming jobs in the US is around 4.5M. Between artists and programmers, the number of jobs that requires on-the-spot skills demonstrations is definitely much larger than all jobs you just listed so far, even when I give you the benefit of the doubt and include all fast food managers in the US and not just Baskin Robbins. Above you illustrated some reasons why asking for a skill demonstration is a good idea, so I’m not sure why it matters whether or not it’s common for other job types. Maybe programming interviews have better outcomes than accounting interviews (fewer firings or bad employees per capita), in addition to higher average pay?