3 ms·

And somehow you still get very many people who claim to be experienced developers in $LANG and are unable to write or explain even basic things. Usually engine

And somehow you still get very many people who claim to be experienced developers in $LANG and are unable to write or explain even basic things. Usually engineers can spot the CVs talking around the fact they can't actually do what they claim well before it even comes to interview, but HR often can't and the recruiters will try it on anyway to get paid!

anonzzzies 3y ago
I don’t want to be treated like a scammer; if you assume I am lying then I don’t want to work for you anyway.
- BiteCode_dev 3y ago
  I wish there were no detector guarding supermarket doors and google would not make me go through shenanigans every time I use a different device to login as well. But we can't have nice things because of the proverbial bad apples. You are free to reject the job offer, but thinking it will make any difference and that employers won't keep trying to protect themselves against being scammed is wishful thinking.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    If you have no standing (as a junior) then sure, but as a senior, you can simply ask previous employers. If that’s not enough then indeed, I will refuse. I am not going to solve some crappy leethcode crap just because they are paranoid.
    - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
      Lots of employers will not answer to that request for various reasons. So you may get a phone number of a buddy of the candidate that will tell you he was stellar.
      - anonzzzies 3y ago
        Not my experience, but then again, I am only one guy with one life so.
- ProjectArcturis 3y ago
  It's not personal, it's a natural and inevitable result of the fact that there are a ton of scammers out there. If you maintain that attitude you will be selecting for naive and/or slow-to-adapt companies.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    There are, but I (and many seniors) am easy to verify. If you know who I am and talked to previous employers (probably friends or at least people you met at conferences or fairs) or know me already from meet-ups but the rigidity of the hiring process has me do some dance, then please, find some other stooge.
    - dahart 3y ago
      > I am easy to verify. If you know who I am an talked to previous employers Wasn’t parent complaining about being verified, because he assumes that implies he’s lying? If your problem with the process is whether your word is believed without verification, or verified, then what’s the difference between a code test in an interview and talking to a previous employer? (BTW there’s a lot of reasons I might prefer the code test to having people discuss me, even when I have a good reputation. You can’t control what people say or think about you.) > the hiring process has me do some dance You’re upset by having to do a little bit of the thing that you want the job doing? I have to audition if I want to dance or act or play music. Why shouldn’t we audition to write code, or do anything? If you walk into an interview expecting to demonstrate your skills on the spot, which is what interviews are for and always have been, then it’s no surprise and you’ll be prepared. I’ve watched people get upset in interviews because they were asked technical questions and expected their 20 years of experience or whatever should somehow exempt them from talking about code. That attitude is a huge red flag TBH, and I’ve seen people get rejected for it. BTW something to keep in mind is that a ton of people complain about interviews that don’t involve coding. Many would-be programmers are quite frustrated by the focus on soft-skills or experience, and very much prefer to be judged strictly on coding skills.
      - anonzzzies 3y ago
- adhesive_wombat 3y ago
  I mean, I have never done or assigned a take-home or standardised test and never willingly will. But at the first line, either CVs of unvouched-for engineers are pretty ruthlessly culled by active engineers based on "I don't think these skills are even genuine" or its done by others like HR or management based on some kind of universal system everyone takes. I don't agree with the second method, but I can see why it's done because I know people who give too much credit in the first way and waste days interviewing people for senior roles who think C# and C are "basically the same thing anyway" (that's a quote, by the way). Personally, I'd rather just not proceed to interview rather then insult everyone's intelligence with game-able and non-representative tests like leetcode. Usually you can decide if a full interview is a good idea or not out of a phone call where you ask a few unstructured technical questions that are specifically appropriate for the role and/or based on previous experience.
  - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
    So you have one job offer, 200 candidates, 170 sucks at coding but you don't know which ones, and you have 15000 euros (including man-hours and marketings) and 3 months to figure out the right one, convince to join, negociate and sign. Oh, and your dev team is on a dead line and can spare very little time validating candidates, one is sick and you just hired an intern that needs baby sitting. What's you magical solution?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
      Fun hypothetical, but where I work we don't have that many candidates for any position, so it's, so far, never been an issue. I didn't think I'd need to say that "YMMV" but in case it's not obvious, YMMV! Usually there's about a CV passed by me or others per week, an interview maybe every 8 weeks and a hire every 6-12 months. Advantages of not being in a country or industry that offers SF FAANG/MAGMA/whatever salaries, perhaps.
- dahart 3y ago
  Isn’t it a total assumption to jump to the conclusion that being asked to write code in an interview means people think you’re lying? Try thinking about this from the interviewer’s perspective. They need to find out how good you are, and they need to know if your self-assessment is even using the same units as the next candidate’s self-assessment. Spoiler alert: they are different scales. Your idea of you having experience and doing well is very different from my idea of me having experience and doing well. BTW don’t forget that some of the candidates you’re competing against are actually lying, and they’re claiming things on their resume that if taken at face value will get them the job over you. Do you really want employers believing and hiring based on what people can say rather than what they can do? Be careful what you wish for, because if that came true, getting hired would be harder than it is now.

anonzzzies 3y ago

I don’t want to be treated like a scammer; if you assume I am lying then I don’t want to work for you anyway.

BiteCode_dev 3y ago
I wish there were no detector guarding supermarket doors and google would not make me go through shenanigans every time I use a different device to login as well. But we can't have nice things because of the proverbial bad apples. You are free to reject the job offer, but thinking it will make any difference and that employers won't keep trying to protect themselves against being scammed is wishful thinking.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  If you have no standing (as a junior) then sure, but as a senior, you can simply ask previous employers. If that’s not enough then indeed, I will refuse. I am not going to solve some crappy leethcode crap just because they are paranoid.
  - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
    Lots of employers will not answer to that request for various reasons. So you may get a phone number of a buddy of the candidate that will tell you he was stellar.
    - anonzzzies 3y ago
      Not my experience, but then again, I am only one guy with one life so.
ProjectArcturis 3y ago
It's not personal, it's a natural and inevitable result of the fact that there are a ton of scammers out there. If you maintain that attitude you will be selecting for naive and/or slow-to-adapt companies.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  There are, but I (and many seniors) am easy to verify. If you know who I am and talked to previous employers (probably friends or at least people you met at conferences or fairs) or know me already from meet-ups but the rigidity of the hiring process has me do some dance, then please, find some other stooge.
  - dahart 3y ago
    > I am easy to verify. If you know who I am an talked to previous employers Wasn’t parent complaining about being verified, because he assumes that implies he’s lying? If your problem with the process is whether your word is believed without verification, or verified, then what’s the difference between a code test in an interview and talking to a previous employer? (BTW there’s a lot of reasons I might prefer the code test to having people discuss me, even when I have a good reputation. You can’t control what people say or think about you.) > the hiring process has me do some dance You’re upset by having to do a little bit of the thing that you want the job doing? I have to audition if I want to dance or act or play music. Why shouldn’t we audition to write code, or do anything? If you walk into an interview expecting to demonstrate your skills on the spot, which is what interviews are for and always have been, then it’s no surprise and you’ll be prepared. I’ve watched people get upset in interviews because they were asked technical questions and expected their 20 years of experience or whatever should somehow exempt them from talking about code. That attitude is a huge red flag TBH, and I’ve seen people get rejected for it. BTW something to keep in mind is that a ton of people complain about interviews that don’t involve coding. Many would-be programmers are quite frustrated by the focus on soft-skills or experience, and very much prefer to be judged strictly on coding skills.
    - anonzzzies 3y ago
adhesive_wombat 3y ago
I mean, I have never done or assigned a take-home or standardised test and never willingly will. But at the first line, either CVs of unvouched-for engineers are pretty ruthlessly culled by active engineers based on "I don't think these skills are even genuine" or its done by others like HR or management based on some kind of universal system everyone takes. I don't agree with the second method, but I can see why it's done because I know people who give too much credit in the first way and waste days interviewing people for senior roles who think C# and C are "basically the same thing anyway" (that's a quote, by the way). Personally, I'd rather just not proceed to interview rather then insult everyone's intelligence with game-able and non-representative tests like leetcode. Usually you can decide if a full interview is a good idea or not out of a phone call where you ask a few unstructured technical questions that are specifically appropriate for the role and/or based on previous experience.
- BiteCode_dev 3y ago
  So you have one job offer, 200 candidates, 170 sucks at coding but you don't know which ones, and you have 15000 euros (including man-hours and marketings) and 3 months to figure out the right one, convince to join, negociate and sign. Oh, and your dev team is on a dead line and can spare very little time validating candidates, one is sick and you just hired an intern that needs baby sitting. What's you magical solution?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
    Fun hypothetical, but where I work we don't have that many candidates for any position, so it's, so far, never been an issue. I didn't think I'd need to say that "YMMV" but in case it's not obvious, YMMV! Usually there's about a CV passed by me or others per week, an interview maybe every 8 weeks and a hire every 6-12 months. Advantages of not being in a country or industry that offers SF FAANG/MAGMA/whatever salaries, perhaps.
dahart 3y ago
Isn’t it a total assumption to jump to the conclusion that being asked to write code in an interview means people think you’re lying? Try thinking about this from the interviewer’s perspective. They need to find out how good you are, and they need to know if your self-assessment is even using the same units as the next candidate’s self-assessment. Spoiler alert: they are different scales. Your idea of you having experience and doing well is very different from my idea of me having experience and doing well. BTW don’t forget that some of the candidates you’re competing against are actually lying, and they’re claiming things on their resume that if taken at face value will get them the job over you. Do you really want employers believing and hiring based on what people can say rather than what they can do? Be careful what you wish for, because if that came true, getting hired would be harder than it is now.